Rottweilers Online Forums banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,390 Posts
Good article, but at a Sieger show, you're going to get a true critique of your dog, and at ANY SHOW you basically have paid for that judges opinion of your dog - regardless of how you like it. Not all judges will see your dog the same way, so my advice is to keep showing...

I've found that Sieger shows are much friendlier than AKC shows...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,088 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
i tried to write something similar in the comments section of the article but my browser crashed when i tried to post it. one must expect some potential snobbery in any thing that involves judging while not taking it personally.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,065 Posts
Fun to read and I enjoyed all the pictures. I also checked out his other posts. He's a good photographer. Lots of big dogs in that family.

I think his comments about the behavior of the dogs at the show were interesting. I remember my parents saying that when they were showing their Doberman (50+ years ago, don't ask how I know THAT ;), the handler didn't want anymore than basic obedience training because Copper would lose the "spark" that the judges likes to see... Since Copper weighed 110 lbs (same as my mom), that could have made for some "interesting" situations at home. However, he adored my mom and only seemed to give my dad problems. Never messed with us babies either, although we certainly messed with him :
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,390 Posts
I know plenty of show dogs that have fantastic obedience training and they certainly don't have any less 'spark'...I've never been to a Sieger show where the dogs were out of control in or around the ring - MOST handlers have the smarts to avoid those situations, especially in the working and Champion male classes
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sheera'smom

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,065 Posts
I thought it would make sense that someone would want a well-behaved, happy dog to show...mom & dad were showing Copper in the late 1950's, which probably had something to do with the attitude about behavior. I remember my mom saying that she would whack Copper over the head with her wooden spoon when he got out of line. Mom claimed since he was a german breed, it was the only way to get his attention. She also used to cuddle him in her lap on the couch every morning too. Copper just loved her to pieces...
We've certainly come a long way in our training methods since the "good old days".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,088 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
it makes perfect sense to me. if a person takes a stronger approach to discipline, not only with dogs, then it is essential that they love extra strongly as well in order to balance everything out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,390 Posts
it makes perfect sense to me. if a person takes a stronger approach to discipline, not only with dogs, then it is essential that they love extra strongly as well in order to balance everything out.
Makes no sense at all...whack your dog on the head and cuddle him at night? Makes no sense and certainly is no way to foster a true working relationship between you and your dog.

Would you work harder if your boss whacked you on the head when you screwed up? Probably not...so why apply the same thinking to dog training? I was asked to help someone with their unruly rottie puppy (he was 10 months old and 100 pounds of mouthy BRAT). They wanted to use a shock collar that was recommended by a previous trainer. I told them to toss the collar and come meet me at a local park and I'd be happy to help them.

Fast forward seven months of very hard work (by me and the owners - they really put in a huge effort!) and the dog was able to walk politely on a loose lead with a prong collar (both owners had knee problems so prong was the safest thing at the time) with Neelah and another student with a goofball young male Golden Retriever. No beatings with anything necessary - often than not the dog did alot of problem solving - we let the dog figure things out once we knew he really understood what we were asking - we rewarded tiny moments of brilliance and the dog blossomed.

He'll never be an off leash reliable recall dog, but he is safe to be in public and that is essentially what his owners wanted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sheera'smom

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,065 Posts
I didn't mean that what my mom did was right, I was just commenting on how much better training is now for the dogs AND their owners. If that was an example of how to obedience train a dog 50+ years ago, the dog would be cowering in a corner, hence no "spark".

And in my mom's defense, I don't think she ever really hit him. I remember being "threatened" with the wooden spoon when I was little, but never actually being spanked. Mom sure had a killer "hard eye" stare and a lethal eye brow. Still does in fact. Been known to stop charging dogs and recalcitrant kids in their tracks. Didn't hurt that she sang professionally and could make your ears ring if she raised her voice. All in all, quite the dominant female in our pack :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,390 Posts
Wasn't demeaning what your mom did at all - I know plenty of trainers that STILL use force training - Cesar Millan is one of them - and see no problem with it.

I prefer to have a dog that is HAPPY to work with me - not for me - we are a team - mutual respect makes for a much happier dog and handler - and a safer dog as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sheera'smom

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,088 Posts
Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Makes no sense at all...whack your dog on the head and cuddle him at night?
woah... hold on a sec.. where did i ever say that? i'd never advocate beating a dog. straw man not appreciated.

i know that you mean well but c'mon...

edit: oh yes, i see, because sheera's mom's mom did it. well still... that wasn't me, and i do believe in using discipline and love in combination. i'll accept that you see things differently but will not acknowledge that your outlook is any better than mine. my results have been good, including off-leash recalls. i use treats, discipline, affection, positive reinforcement, and excersice. i am a composite of different methods, and yes, i know you hate this, but i do respect cesar. i think he's one heck of a knowledgeable guy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,390 Posts
i do respect cesar. i think he's one heck of a knowledgeable guy.
Where did he get his knowledge? He has no formal training - has no education to back up his methods...nor does he even THINK of trying to broaden his knowledge - he thinks his methods are the ONLY way to have a good dog. There is no place in the world for the 'my way or the highway' style of training and ANY GOOD TRAINER will tailor a training program for each dog.

Even in my basic family manners classes I rarely used the same method for every dog - every end result was the same, but each dog learns differently.

Cesar has one style of training - brute force. I'll be honest, I cheered loud and long when he got bitten by the Labrador - I, and every other smart trainer I know say that bite coming a MILE AWAY, but Cesar did not. He's very flashy - all for TV and an audience. I've seen him live, spoken to him myself - he's a cocky illegal immigrant who got lucky and thinks his poop smells like roses.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,088 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
you hate him enough to cheer when he is injured, but you've also seen him live and spoken to him? that's a strange combination.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
927 Posts
I am more inclined to believe this article: https://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

but this is off subject. I believe the subject is sieger shows? I don't like them! Far more political then any AKC show. Top prizes usually go to so and so who by the way will be giving the judge a nice two week vacation while they are here. You don't really think they come and fly right back do you? or the kennel that is out to purchase an import, possibly the judges bloodlines. and who is wining and dining the judge or ... Then the critiques, you can read them on most websites. Glowing stuff yes, but bad stuff is not often mentioned. Most of the judges don't want to offend their hosts so simply give trophies out to the best in the class, and just don't bother to mention in the critique that the V1 dog is extremely cow hocked or V4 is roach backed. Mostly you have to read into what is not there. The only honest critiques are to the people not part of any click, of course they probably won't win any trophies either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,390 Posts
you hate him enough to cheer when he is injured, but you've also seen him live and spoken to him? that's a strange combination.
Free tickets to see him live - would never pay $$ to see him.

Now, lets get back to the Sieger show issue - as I stated previously - I know SEVERAL incredibly well behaved, obedience titled dogs that have done quite well at Sieger shows - no 'edge' or 'spark' was lost during any training.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sheera'smom

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,088 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
I am more inclined to believe this article: https://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

but this is off subject. I believe the subject is sieger shows? I don't like them! Far more political then any AKC show. Top prizes usually go to so and so who by the way will be giving the judge a nice two week vacation while they are here. You don't really think they come and fly right back do you? or the kennel that is out to purchase an import, possibly the judges bloodlines. and who is wining and dining the judge or ... Then the critiques, you can read them on most websites. Glowing stuff yes, but bad stuff is not often mentioned. Most of the judges don't want to offend their hosts so simply give trophies out to the best in the class, and just don't bother to mention in the critique that the V1 dog is extremely cow hocked or V4 is roach backed. Mostly you have to read into what is not there. The only honest critiques are to the people not part of any click, of course they probably won't win any trophies either.
yep. that's why i like sports where there is a clear winner based on an accomplishment (ex: fastest time in tracking).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,390 Posts
yep. that's why i like sports where there is a clear winner based on an accomplishment (ex: fastest time in tracking).
That is why I preferred performance events - obedience, rally, agility, etc...might not have the prettiest dogs in the ring, but we had fun, and even if we didn't win, we got a ribbon if we qualified!

Another comment on Sieger shows - I've been to several where the judge was less than complimentary of ALOT of dogs and it certainly was in the written critique - including Champion and Working classes!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sheera'smom

·
Registered
Joined
·
440 Posts
I am more inclined to believe this article: https://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

but this is off subject. I believe the subject is sieger shows? I don't like them! Far more political then any AKC show. Top prizes usually go to so and so who by the way will be giving the judge a nice two week vacation while they are here. You don't really think they come and fly right back do you? or the kennel that is out to purchase an import, possibly the judges bloodlines. and who is wining and dining the judge or ... Then the critiques, you can read them on most websites. Glowing stuff yes, but bad stuff is not often mentioned. Most of the judges don't want to offend their hosts so simply give trophies out to the best in the class, and just don't bother to mention in the critique that the V1 dog is extremely cow hocked or V4 is roach backed. Mostly you have to read into what is not there. The only honest critiques are to the people not part of any click, of course they probably won't win any trophies either.
I would agree with the above as well, and from hearing about AKC shows, there is politics there as well as many complain that winners are many times based on who is handling the dog, not the dog itself.

However, I still enjoy sieger shows knowing that crap goes on, but unfortunately because of finances I can't show and train at the same time, so I chose to train instead. Lots of money in traveling to shows. I will say that I was at the Nashville show in 2012 and saw much of the behaviors described in this article. While the results aren't up yet for this particular show, I have my opinion is it probably coming from the same people/dogs. It really was pathetic to see some breeders with no control over their dogs.

There are of course some shows that run more smoothly than others. Last year I think, someone videoed the sieger show in Detroit, this was great to see. Wish they would film more and more of them, because if you can't get out there to see, at least you get a bird's eye view of what is going on. And, I have to say, much of that show looked like a disaster as well, especially when the judge made an impromptu break to teach a class on how to show/exhibit your dog's bite. Now that was fascinating! LOL

Back to the judge in this article, Gerard Oshea, I hear he is a very tough judge. There are some judges out there who will comment on dogs that are here physically but not mentally. And they should separate the dead in the head dogs from the more spirited dogs, in sieger shows, they definitely like to see spirit in the rottweiler while being baited, something sadly missing in many in this breed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,088 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
a person just has to be prepared for pretension. since it was the author's first show, he did not know what to expect. you can tell that he took it all a little personally.
i'll probably go to one eventually, but i can't participate because my dog is spayed. i've been invited to a couple of them just to watch and they told me that my dog is welcome to come. also, they have BBQ after the show!! :)
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top