Rottweilers Online Forums banner

need advice for excessive gas and soft stool

20K views 53 replies 12 participants last post by  RottiMomCT 
#1 · (Edited)
hi all,

after reading some of the more tragic posts in this section i almost feel guilty asking about such a non-life threatening thing as soft stool and gas but it has become a concern to me because of the length of time that it has been occuring.

my dog is now about 6 and a half months old and has had soft stool bordering on the runs, but still with some shape. it's almost impossible to pick it up however so it is very soft. also, in the evenings especially, she farts very frequently. these symptoms have been occuring for at least the past couple months. blood work was done and elevated globulin levels and red blood cell count were noticed, although the vet said that this could be due to her young age or other factors.

her food was originally raw, but i switched to EVO kibbles about a month ago to try to firm things up.

what i'd like to ask from anyone who feels like answering is if you have any suggestions as to the cause of such a condition and/or dietary recommendations to help keep up the stool firmness.
 
#2 ·
over feeding can often cause loose stools- how much evo are you feeding a day? it could be many things- an intolerence to some ingredient in the food-or too much protein? I had to try a couple different kibbles before I found the one that works well for them (Acana Grainfree Pacifica).

and I know what you mean about the inconvenience- I was a happy camper when they finally produced a stool I could pick up instead of spraying away!
 
#4 ·
Jayda drinks a ton of water and her stool is firm...

I would say the food is the culprit - if gas wasn't an issue on raw but loose stool was - the food is probably causing the gas. As for loose stool - could be you are simply feeding too much, or it may not agree with him...

Which EVO are you feeding? The "Red Meat" is VERY RICH...
 
#5 ·
Evo is a good food... however I've heard of many dogs who simply cannot tolerate it. The symptoms are always the same: loose stool and gas. You may need to try something else. Additionally, I wouldn't feed EVO to a growing large breed puppy.

Can I ask how you were feeding raw? If the stools were loose when you were rawfeeding, you should have just been able to up the bone percentage to firm them up. Were you feeding a raw prey model diet (80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ)?

Has your dog been checked for parasites? Even if you can't get a firm stool sample out of him, you should be able to scoop it up with a spoon and put it in a container for the vet. Your dog is still a puppy... so parasites would be my first suspect. Also check for giardia, etc.

If everything checks out health wise, I'd go with a food switch and add some probiotics and digestive enzymes. If you want to stick with kibble, I recommend Acana Pacifica (not Grasslands, that one's not good for large breed puppies, but the other two formulas are fine). Otherwise, there's nothing better for a large breed puppy, IMO, than a properly balanced raw diet.

I recommend acidophilus and bifidus (found at just about any store that sells vitamins and the like for humans) for a good probiotic. My Rott is extremely gassy and it has been all but eliminated with feeding Longevity by Springtime, Inc. I can tell when we've missed a dose because he can literally clear a room. LOL.
 
#6 ·
thanks for the responses.

@ sadie mae: i'll try reducing the amount that i feed her.

@ rottiemomct: i am indeed using the red meat formula (how could i resist since it has a picture of a rottie on the package). i alternate between the chicken and the red meat.

@ nikelodeon79: i might try switching to a new food. if acana pacifica is available in canada, i'll buy some next time i'm at the store. when i fed raw, i used MDF company, which in this case was a mix of mashed up chicken, including bone and organ, as well as samll amounts of carrot, parsely, celery, and i think potato. i'll take her in and have her checked for parasites if the food switch does not work. also, i will take your advice and buy some of the probiotics.

in short, i'll try everything that you folks recommended!
 
#9 ·
@ nikelodeon79: i might try switching to a new food. if acana pacifica is available in canada, i'll buy some next time i'm at the store. when i fed raw, i used MDF company, which in this case was a mix of mashed up chicken, including bone and organ, as well as samll amounts of carrot, parsely, celery, and i think potato. i'll take her in and have her checked for parasites if the food switch does not work. also, i will take your advice and buy some of the probiotics.
It sounds like it wasn't really a balanced raw diet, which can cause poop issues. I feed a raw prey model diet, and the guidelines for feeding are 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ. Some dogs need a bit more bone overall to firm up poops. I do not feed fruits, veggies, or grains. Dogs are technically not made to digest these foods so in order to make them useful for the dog, they have to be processed (pureed, cooked, etc.).

oh btw, why would you not feed evo to a large breed puppy?
I second that- why not the Acana Grasslands? Sadie is almost 9 months old, and I just yesterday bought a small bag of the grasslands to mix in with their Pacifica. Is it because of the lamb?
Slow, even growth is extremely important with large breed puppies. A key component to this is a proper ratio of Calcium and Phosphorus (1.2 to 1). Some grain free foods are also super high in protein, which can also cause issues with large breed puppies.

Though the assumption is that raw is a super high protein diet, it actually is not, because of the higher water content. A raw prey model diet is actually a mid level protein diet, much lower than some of the grain free kibbles (Evo included). Evo is not a bad food... just a bit too rich for some dogs, and definitely not for puppies.

IMO, raw is a great diet out there for large breed puppies, but there are also some good kibbles out there. :)
 
#10 ·
I would say that the dog needs more roughage in the diet. Canned food, raw food might cause the runs. Too high protein also. I now mix a low protein dry food with a higher protein high quality dry food. And my dog eats raw soup bones. After some very trying and expensive trials and tribulations, this combination seems to be working.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Yes, I agree, 34% does seem to be a high protein content. I am not familar with the Acana brand but protein is only part of what a dog needs and too high can be detrimental.

Since you are in Canada also, have you tried to find the Summit brand dry food for dogs? The cost is reasonable and the Summit 'Holistic' is a 4/5 rating and their 'Puppy' mix is a 3/5 rating on
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews

Personally, I am not a fan of rice fed on its own since it is not native to dogs but brown rice is digested well by dogs when cooked. And although occasionally I like to feed raw meat to my dog, it's much too rich in my opinion to only feed them the commercially prepared raw meats. Wolves/ wild dogs don't eat raw meat everyday in the wild. Some people have success with the raw diets so I don't want to, and am not trying to, ruffle any feathers :)
 
#19 · (Edited)
Acana is described as an "above-average protein" food on the web site. Athletes require above average protein diets! For dogs that are mostly pets, limiting the amount of food to her exercise and growth requirements might be all you have to do.
Personally, I would switch the dog to a lower protein food (the AAFCO standards call for 18% protein for adult dogs and 22% for growing dogs - the minimum protein requirement to sustain life is pretty low at only about 6% on a dry food matter basis for adult dogs and about 10% for puppies. However, this assumes that the protein is high quality and that adequate caloric intake is occurring so that the protein is not used for energy by the body but for the specialized jobs that protein has in the body.

Has she been wormed?
 
#14 · (Edited)
Webistes that give kibbled dog foods "5 stars" or "2 stars" are meaningless. At best, any dry kibbled dog food is a 2-3 star ration when compared to a proper raw diet. At worst, any kibbled dog food is a slow, nutritionally-devalued poison for a dog. (More on this later.)

Regarding the subject of the thread, loose stools, the problem is doubtless a combination of the dog being fed kibble--and too much of it. Overfeeding is a problem that plagues over 90% of the dog population. Very, very few people keep their dogs in a truly lean, athletic state of condition. Any dog that is fed more food than it can process in one setting is going to poop more than usual, and said stool will doubtless be looser and runnier than a dog who has been fed optimally and has processed and utilized nearly all of what he has been fed.

This brings us to the whole concept of dog kibble itself. Even in the best kibbles, the ingredients would have been better for the dog if they were served raw rather than in their kibbled form. No, Innova Evo is not a good food. All kibbled dog foods are inferior to the wholesome, raw ingredients they originally started out as. Some kibbled foods didn't even start out as good nutrition for a dog (corn, rice, wheat, etc.), but even those kibbled feeds that did start out as quality ingredients (like Evo) ultimately become nutritionally-inferior through the kibbling process than they originally were in their raw state. Not only are they inferior, they are more expensive. If you do the math, Innova Evo and all the rest of these “designer kibbles” can cost anywhere from $2/lb-$5/lb, which is far more expensive than any intelligently-planned raw diet. And not only are they more expensive, they are woefully-inferior in quality to a good, raw diet.

The simple truth is, kibbled dog foods lack the vitamins, the enzymes, as well as the natural moisture of raw diets. The kibbling process itself destroys much of the nutritive value of what was once raw meat. Worse, the bone-dry kibble that's left then dehydrates the animal. Consider this biological fact: our world is comprised of about 70% water. The dog’s body itself is comprised of about 70% water. Raw meats etc. are comprised of about 70% water. (Is anyone noticing a pattern here?) Yet, after the kibbling process, the dry kibble that's left drops down to between 5-10% water, which causes the animal to be in a perpetual state of dehydration. Don’t believe me? Feed your dog raw for a week, then feed your dog Innova Evo for a week, and actually measure the amount of water that your dog consumes on a daily basis. The Evo-fed dog will drink 5-10x the amount of water that a raw-fed dog will drink, because he is perpetually-dehydrated.

The reason for this is simple: because raw meat is actually ~70% water, a dog that gets fed 2-lb of raw chicken quarters actually gets 22.4 oz of water and only 9.6 oz of solid food. (Thus he is already well-hydrated from his food w/o even needing to drink extra water.) By contrast, a dog fed 2 lb of dry kibble (at 10% moisture) only gets fed 3.2 oz of water and 28.8 oz of solid food. In other words, the kibble-fed dog gets 3x the amount of solid food a raw-fed dog gets, but only 1/7th the amount of water to process it. But it is actually much worse than this, for if a dog ate 28.8 oz of solid mass from raw feed, then he would be getting nearly 70 oz of moisture to process it, as again a raw diet is 70% water and 30% solid. So, if a dog ate ~30 oz of solid mass, naturally, then he should have about 70 oz (4 lbs) of moisture to process it! Yet a kibble-fed dog gets only 3.2 oz of moisture to process 28.8 oz of solids. No wonder kibble-fed dogs drink 10x the amount of water raw-fed dogs drink--they are literally forced into a perpetual state of dehydration! (And this is especially true for the ultra-high-protein Evo.) Feeding kibble simply unbalances a dog, for it is nutritionally bankrupt as well as bankrupt of life-giving water. Any raw feeder will tell you that their dogs hardly drink water at all … while any feeder of Innova Evo will see their dogs scarfing-up water all day long.

Every animal on this earth is biologically-designed to eat raw foods. Cows eat raw grass, birds eat raw seeds (insects, rodents, etc.). Wolves eat raw, whole animals. Etc., etc. You can plug-in whatever kind of animal you like, and it was biologically-designed to eat some specific food item (or set of food items) RAW. Raw foods are simply more nutritious than cooked foods. Raw foods have all of the micro-flora, enzymes, etc. to provide absolutely optimal nutrition, and they are balanced with essential quantities of life-giving moisture. Plainly and simply, cooking destroys this natural balance. The more cooking, the more destruction. The less cooking, the less destruction.

The only reason we humans (the only “animals” who eat cooked foods) cook our food at all is to rid it of potential parasites/bacteria. That is the ONLY reason we cook our foods. The fact remains, however, that raw vegetables are more nutritious than cooked vegetables, and raw meats are more nutritious than cooked meats. The only foods that benefit from cooking are carbohydrates (corns, rice, wheat, etc.). Most hardened carbs, grains, cannot be processed by the body without cooking. If a dog eats raw corn or raw rice, it comes out looking the same as when it went in. Thus the cooking is necessary for these carbs, just to make these elements usable to a dog … and yet the funny thing is a dog has NO NUTRITIONAL NEED for these carbohydrates! Dogs are designed to get their energy from animal fat … so why even bother feeding a dog carbs?

Even when we humans cook our meats, we do not cook meat down to looking like bone-dry kibble. We cook our meat only enough to kill any parasites, but we leave it essentially with most of its moisture still intact. I mean, can you imagine feeding your children (or yourself) bone-dry kibbled pellets all your lives? Can you imagine cooking fish or chicken to a dry, burned crisp (like dog kibble), and then eating all of your meats and foods like this for life---and expecting to be healthy? Does anyone really think cooking your own food items to the degree dog kibble is cooked would be as healthy as eating fresh, raw foods? We can easily see how unhealthy this would be for us, over tiem, and yet MOST people do this to their dogs for their whole lives … they feed them nutritionally-devalued, bone-dry kibble … and then they scratch their heads and wonder why their animals start falling apart with skin problems, thyroid issues, etc. as they get older.

Here's another test you can do to compare kibble versus raw feeding: dump a pile of your favorite kibble on the ground outside ... then place its raw food equivalents next to it in another pile. What you will notice is that ALL of the ants, flies, bugs, etc. will immediately go straight to the raw food. You will also notice that the raw food will quickly begin to stink and decompose. In short, the raw food will disappear quite rapidly. By contrast, you will notice that the pile of kibble will stay a pile of kibble for a month ... two months ... maybe getting mold on it, if it rains ... but the kibble will sit there and pretty much be unchanged, while the raw food will be gone very shortly. This is called bioavailability. Raw food is simply more available to be broken-down and utilized rapidly than is kibble ... while kibble is much tougher to break down (making it much less desireable to all organisms).

Well, in precisely this same fashion (when placed in the stomach of a dog), raw food is likewise more nutritious, more able to be broken down, and more completely able to be utilitized by the dog ... than are the little dry, brown pellets we call kibble. And hence raw food is much better-utilized and more nutritious for your dogs than kibble. Even the best kibble pales in value nutritionally as kibble compared to how it started off in its natural state.

The end result of even the best ingredients, when turned into "kibble," is that the food is de-valued. There is simply no way around this fact. A dog has a much harder time processing and utilizing even the best kibbles, and if he's being over-fed something he can't really process that well to begin with, he is going to poop a lot. (And if the kibbled ingredients are garbage, such as corns, wheats, glutens, soys, sorghums, etc., the dog is really going to leave big, runny, stinky piles everywhere.) By contrast, a dog being fed a proper faw diet will have much smaller and harder stools, which will be nearly odor-free.

Hope this rant helps and thanks for reading.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Webistes that give kibbled dog foods "5 stars" or "2 stars" are meaningless. At best, any dry kibbled dog food is a 2-3 star ration when compared to a proper raw diet. At worst, any kibbled dog food is a slow, nutritionally-devalued poison for a dog. (More on this later.)


Well, in precisely this same fashion (when placed in the stomach of a dog), raw food is likewise more nutritious, more able to be broken down, and more completely able to be utilitized by the dog ... than are the little dry, brown pellets we call kibble. And hence raw food is much better-utilized and more nutritious for your dogs than kibble. Even the best kibble pales in value nutritionally as kibble compared to how it started off in its natural state.

The end result of even the best ingredients, when turned into "kibble," is that the food is de-valued. There is simply no way around this fact. A dog has a much harder time processing and utilizing even the best kibbles, and if he's being over-fed something he can't really process that well to begin with, he is going to poop a lot.

Hope this rant helps and thanks for reading.
Well, I agree and disagree with you.

It's all very well to say that domesticated animals fare better on raw meat diets but having been through a series of trials and several veterinary expenses with exactly that kind of diet, I can assure you that raw meat diets are not always best. One of the biggest problems is that domesticated animals are not burning the energy as the wild animals who truly do need the benefits of raw meat diets. The exception are working dogs such as sled dogs for example who do merit and require the mass amounts of protein of a raw meat diet. The average domestic dog works very little; does not hunt for its food; usually is not exercised to the level of wild animals and does therefore not need the high value content that an animal who must hunt and forage requires.

Wild animals also do not only eat raw meat although the bulk of their diets are composed of raw meat. When they do eat raw meat, the variety of 'meats' they consume (animals they hunt) varies as to protein and nutrient values. It's interesting to note that dogs and almost all preditor animals are are equipped to handle both plant and animal protein (most of the animals they eat are herbivores after all whose diets are solely vegetation such as grasses, roots, etc) and the quality of protein in food, rather than the source, is a primary concern for animal nutritionists.

To simply write-off all kibble food as " a slow, nutritionally-devalued poison for a dog" does no credit to those companies who have devoted time, money and study into making nutritionally balanced diets for domestic dogs (and ofcourse, we all know that there are lots of poor kibble foods on the market and I will spare mentioning those).

Raw diets do seem to be a dog's natural favorite. But a lot of people don't understand and don't have the time to understand the intricasies of a dog's nutritional requirements and end up giving the animal masses of protein that the animal simply cannot expend in a domesticated lifestyle. The ensuing complications are many (physical as well as behavioral).

If you are a nutritional expert and can make allowances in your dogs diets for a domesticated lifestyle, various types of meats, various levels of proteins, types of natural vegetation, etc then you have probably researched your dogs diets with efficiency and the dog will benefit. But to condemn the hard work of those companies that have studied domestic dog nutritional requirements and made foods that meet those requirements as "slow poison" - you really have nothing to support that. Our former dog lived to the ripe old age of 20 years and the bulk of her diet was a good quality kibble.
 
#15 ·
Hey Capp
Acana is totally available in Canada as its made in Alberta so not only are you getting good food depending where you are you will be supporting local.

On this topic I have a 10 week old rottie and i just switched him to the large breed puppy Acana and its day 2 ( I weaned him off the breeders choice of science diet). I find that my boy Blue can clear a room but only when its pretty much time to take him out. I like to think of it as my early warning system as he is mostly house trained but still a puppy. Although his stool is exactly the same as you describe it but has only been since i switched him so I'm hoping it is only cause he is still adjusting.

I find the protein level is a little high in the food so i was wondering if its to high i definitely don't wanna be hurting my boy in the long run. i believe the protein level is in the low 30% range any advice would be appreciated.
 
#16 ·
wow LBB, thanks for the informative post. would you like to post your raw formula? (btw, i've added water to my dog's kibble ever since the first time i fed her)

brinfire, if you click on that link that germanrottie supplied above you can browse many types of food and read hundreds of comments from people who use each respective brand.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Protein content is NOT the issue with large breed pups, unless you're talking crazy high protein like Evo. The issue is the calcium and phosphorus... all of the Acana Pacifica formulas excepting the Grasslands is perfectly fine for large breed pups. Grasslands is just fine once they get to be about 14 months old.

As far as a raw diet only being good for sled dogs and the like... tell that to my three! They've been on raw for over a year and are doing fantastic. Perfect condition, great energy levels, shiny, healthy coats, clean teeth, and NO doggy odor. ;) I do NOT believe dogs need "roughage." Mine get 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ.

I also would like to add that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to feed raw... degrees in nutrition, etc. are not necessary. :)

If anyone is interested and has FB, here is a quick "how to" article I wrote about feeding raw: http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=437610758104
 
#21 · (Edited)
I would caution people reading and trying "homemade recipe" raw diet posts unless those recipes are from educated sources. I listened to one of the individuals and followed her raw diet recipe (who also owned a Rottweiler) and my dog suffered terribly and required a lot of veterinary care. I certainly support raw meat fed to dogs and feed mine raw meat on occasion and raw soup bones too. I have written in my other posts in this thread more information based on scientific studies and animal nutritionalists observations. As for the the 'high protein' fad in commercially prepared dog foods in the recent five years, there hasn't been a study that has shown that domesticated dogs were better off with those 30%+ high protein diets than not that I am aware of.
 
#22 ·
Raw is actually considered moderate protein, not high protein.

BTW, I do consult with a canine nutritionist. Her info is in the article I linked to.

I've found that EVERY single thing that's wrong with my dogs, my anti-rawfeeding vet blames on the raw diet. She'd tell me to switch to Science Diet CRAP food, I'd buy the bag, go home, then continue to feed a raw diet. My dog would get better, she'd credit the Science Diet, and then I'd calmly return the UNOPENED bag. She's starting to see the light.

I take most nutrition advice from veterinarians with a grain of salt... they study very little nutrition in college and the classes they do take are sponsored by pet food companies (usually Hills, Royal Canin, or Purina). There's a lot of misinformation out there, even in "scientific" studies. Most, if not all, research is paid for by these same companies. The last they want is for people to find out their foods are generally crap. Most companies are not concerned with your pet's nutrition... they're concerned with making the cheapest possible food and selling it for the most profit to line their own pockets. Sad, but true.

It's not a "raw diet recipe," btw. I don't blend, puree, mix, or otherwise alter the raw food.
 
#23 ·
thanks for the link nikel. have anything for someone who does not have a facebook account? i'd be interested to see your recipe.

germanrottie, i'm not taking sides but i believe that LBB was only calling the low quality kibbles "slow poison". LBB simply disapproved of the higher-end kibbles.
for protein levels, i had always assumed that higher protein meant that you didn't have to feed them as much. true? not true?
 
#29 · (Edited)
for protein levels, i had always assumed that higher protein meant that you didn't have to feed them as much. true? not true?
I came across something that you might find interesting from Lew Olson, Phd (natural health), ref: http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/dogs-and-protein/:

"Too Much Protein?

The anatomy and digestive process of dogs are designed to most easily digest animal fat and protein. Dogs perform best on animal based products. Studies have shown you cannot feed a dog too much protein. (For more information about this, you can review the past newsletter on protein at http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/protein/.) I have had questions from people with concerns that protein can cause kidney problems. Some of this confusion results from the idea that dogs with renal issues need a low protein diet. This is not correct. Dogs in chronic renal failure will have some comfort with less *phosphorus* in the diet. It is possible to feed a low phosphorus diet, but still have a good amount of high quality protein. Protein is necessary for healthy kidneys. But feeding a high protein diet will not cause renal problems. For more information on this, refer to:

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/kidney-diet/

http://www.dogaware.com/kidney.html

Also remember, senior dogs need *more* protein than adults. As our dogs age, proteins help with organ function, coat, skin, and immunity. Puppies also require high protein for good growth and maturity. Protein does not cause panosteitis or other growth problems. Read more:

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/feeding-puppies-seniors/
 
#24 · (Edited)
I agree with Nikelodeon. And, yes, people need to actually educate themselves about feeding a raw diet. Matter of fact, I think people should educate themselves about dogs, period, before they buy one. There is a lot more to good dog ownership than petting a doggie and dumping kibble in front of it every day.

I further agree that what any vet has to say on the subject of nutrition should be discarded ... if he offers "Science Diet" for sale in his practice. There is no "science" anywhere that will show that corns, sorghums, beet pulps, etc. (all Science Diet ingredients) are good for dogs. Plainly and simply, they're bad for dogs. Feeding any dog corn and wheat, instead of meats and fats, is like trying to run a car on water and milk, instead of gasoline: the vehicle will malfunction. In fact, any machine will malfunction when given a fuel it was not designed to run on. That should pretty much be common sense.

People need to keep in mind that vets are in business to make money, and they need to realize the more problems your dog continually has in his life, the more money your vet will make off of you when you continually bring your dog in for "this and that." Well, feeding any animal what is was NOT designed to eat is the best way to make sure that animal always has problems ... and the ingredients in all Science Diet products are NOT what dogs are supposed to eat. Ergo, when you see a vet offering Science Diet for food to his clients (which is pretty much all of them), what you're seeing is a vet who is trying to keep himself in a perpetual state of repeat-business ...

It's as simple as this: dogs are supposed to eat raw, whole animals ... not corn, wheat, soy, or sorghum. Anyone who disagrees with this has a problem with reality.

However, this does not mean you can feed a dog "raw hamburger" and expect good results ... for this is NOT a balanced raw diet. Dogs need to eat whole animals, so if you're not feeding whole raw chickens, whole rabbits, etc. to your dog ... and rotating other whole raw animals in his diet (which is the best mimic of what a carnivore would eat in nature) ... then this means you have to approximate a balanced raw diet for your dog with some combination of meats, entrails, bones, eggs, etc.. You can't just give a dog raw hamburger and think you're helping your dog ... you'll actually be killing your dog and ruining it after awhile. Yet many people do exactly this (or offer some equally-thoughtless equivalent) and then scratch their heads and wonder "what went wrong?"

I guess what I am saying is a person actually has to read and educate themselves about dogs, what they really should eat, etc. in order to do a truly competent job at caring for them. Petting a dog and dumping unhealthy, totally-devalued kibble for it to eat everyday, does not make a person a good dog owner. Truly understanding dogs, and taking the time and making the effort to provide for ALL of your dog's needs is what makes a person a truly good, competent dog owner ... and a member of "The 2% Club" ... as I would say only about 2% of dog owners truly are good owners, all the way around. 98% of dog owners just pet their doggies and feed them kibble.

In other words, the vast majority of dog owners "mean well" (emotionally), but ultimately they can't be bothered with learning everything they can about dogs, and they can't be bothered making the effort to even feed their dogs correctly.

Regarding % protein, even a whole, raw chicken is only ~16% protein. Chickens have more fat than protein. And they have twice as much water (~70%) as fat and protein put together. Same with eggs, beef, and any other excellent protein sourch. There is no natural meat source that's 30% protein and only 10% moisture ... yet this is exactly what these new "designer kibbles" offer dog owners. The sad part is, the dog owners who feed these feeds scratch their heads and wonder why their poor dogs drink 10x as much water as usual. The answer is, as I stated in my last post, these feeds keep a dog in a perpetual state of dehydration.

If someone really wants to do his or her best for their dogs, they will learn all they can about feeding raw ... and then they well implement a rotational raw diet.

Good luck.
 
#28 ·
It's as simple as this: dogs are supposed to eat raw, whole animals ...
If you are emulating wolves (and related species) that certainly holds true and is not practiced by most raw diet proponents. Rodents such as mice and rats as well as large carrion should be the stable. Dogs, like wolves and related relatives, are omnivores. And that also means, that plant proteins are integral to the diet, though to a lesser extent.

Bear in mind that almost all meat intended for human consumption has been treated (chicken, pork, beef, etc). A true raw meat diet with full benefits for the animal should consist of wild animals and not those we buy at the super markets therefore.

I am certainly not against raw meat diets. But many people don't seem to recognize that dogs are domesticated animals and are bred selectively. We can't just lump them in with wild animals lifestyles.

Oh I agree with you there are lots of studies for the purpose of promoting dry dog food. There are also lots of independent studies and those are the ones I look for :)
 
#25 ·
I'm not bashing raw at all, nor am I bashing kibble...just stating MY opinion.

I've fed high quality kibble to Ben for the almost 11 years I've had him. He has NEVER had any health issues in those years, except for normal "old dog" issues - arthritis and cataracts - that were diagnosed about 2 years ago, and injuries sustained after being attacked by my other male. Blood work run every year for the past 4 years has been normal. He is happy, healthy and aside from NORMAL "old dog" coat (shedding!) his coat is shiny. Ben's diet is supplemented with Metacam (75 pound dog gets a 35 pound dose), as well as Dasuquin and Omega 3 fish oil.

Jayda was fed a raw diet (Bravo Blends) for 3 months after being diagnosed with bladder stones and struvite crystals in her urine. She has allergies and has been eating Taste of The Wild food since December 2007, prior to that she was fed Natures Variety Prairie, Salmon & Brown Rice. After 3 months on the raw diet I repeated the urinalysis and xrays and the stones were gone, urinalysis normal. She's been weaned back to kibble and I repeated the US and xrays last week and all is still normal. She gets the same supplements as Ben, with the addition of a cranberry/vitamin C supplement, which was started when I put her on the raw diet.

Feeding raw, FOR ME, is not financially realistic right now. Ben and Baron won't touch it, I've tried. Jayda will, obviously. Neelah, not so much...picked at it and tries to bury it under blankets - so if I don't SEE her doing it, I'll find it later and it's usually rancid and reeks!

I chose to feed Bravo this last time for Jayda because it was not only easy for me, but easier for anyone else what might have had to feed the dogs - I was told to not even think about 'preparing' her food in the kitchen - inlaws just didn't seem to understand that the Bravo 'chubs' (rolls) are raw meat, bone, organ meat and veggies - pretty much almost the exact same as a recipe for meatloaf, minus the breadcrumbs! It was more expensive, but easier.

During that time I researched suppliers and pretty much everything else - my co-worker and good friend has fed raw for 12 years so gave me alot of help. Between the supplementation necessary to balance the diet, and the food itself, plus needing a freezer (which I do not have space for) to make it financially worth it (have to buy in bulk alot of the time), I would have spent at least $50 MORE per month on raw feeding than I do on kibble - and I scrape and scrimp to buy the kibble - working for a vet you don't make any money, you barely get by...

So, a raw diet may be 'the best' diet out there, but it can be alot of work, and it can be pricey. Maybe when I'm down to two dogs I'll look at it again, but for now, my four dogs are thriving on the TOTW kibble (all 'flavors') with an occasional change once or twice a year to a different brand of grain free kibble when I get coupons...
 
#26 ·
I absolutely respect people's decision to feed a good quality kibble. I am not one of those "raw is the ONLY way" type people. However, for me the raw is actually cheaper than kibble. Plus, I actually don't supplement the raw diet. A properly balanced raw diet shouldn't need supplementation. The only dog that gets supplements is Apollo, for his elbow dysplasia.

Here is the article I linked to, for those who do not have FB:

RAW PREY MODEL DIET
By: Nicki Simonson

Some of the benefits of feeding raw:
-fresh breath
-diminished doggy odor
-dogs are mentally stimulated
-dogs generally eat their food right away
-smaller poops
-increased energy
-shiny coats
-slower, steadier growth in puppies (important for large/giant breeds!)

The main points:
-dogs should be fed 2% of their ideal adult body weight daily*
-the goal is 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organs.* Igenerally try to balance this over a week's time.
-go slowly at first... too much, too fast can cause loose stool.

*These percentages are guidelines. My GSD male needs a lot more than 2% because he has such a high metabolism and is constantly moving. Also, some dogs need more or less bone.. just look at the poop. If it's loose, add more bone. If the dog is constipated, add less bone.

I start new dogs on chicken. Many people buy whole chickens and cut them up, but I don’t like to deal with cutting them up so I buy leg quarters. (Bone in chicken breasts are generally a good choice for puppies, the bones are the easiest and there is a good bone to meat ratio). Check the sodium content: if it's over 80, it's enhanced and you'll want to pass. Most of the Gold N Plump sold at my local grocery store is un-enhanced.

You can decide whether or not you want to take the skin and excess fat off the first few days. I did this for a couple of days when starting mine raw, but I don't believe I would've needed to. My dogs were just fine.

Simply hand your dog a chicken quarter (you can feed outside if you like... I fed inside at first because I wanted a more controlled environment). Don't be surprised if he doesn't immediately gobble it up. He may try to lick it to death first.

You'll want to feed nothing but chicken for the first couple of weeks. The bone content will be a bit high... but that's okay since bone = firm poops, and her tummy will be adjusting to the new food.

Don't be surprised if your dog "guards" his food, even if he's never done this before. It is completely natural. Think about if you've been fed nothing but dry cereal your whole entire life and someone hands you a big, juicy steak. You'd guard that sucker, too! He WILL get used to the fact that he's going to get this fantastic food every day and become nonchalant about eating. The key is to NOT mess with his food. If you mess with his food, he'll start to worry that you will take it away.

Don't be surprised if, once he starts to realize how amazingly good chicken is, he horks down his food and then almost immediately throws it up again. Let him eat it a second time (gross, I know, but it's what he'd do if he were a wolf in the wild). My Rottie occasionally does this and then seems to learn his lesson for a time... and for the next few days he'll eat much slower and more carefully. My German Shepherd female is an AMAZINGLY wonderful eater. She carefully chews everything.

Your dog will be on just chicken for two weeks so that will give you plenty of time to choose your next protein source. I decided to go with pork, because it is inexpensive and readily available. When you start your second protein source, add just a bit of it to a chicken meal, so his tummy gets used to this new meat. Gradually increase the amount until you're feeding a full pork (or other protein) meal. Repeat these steps when adding beef, turkey, lamb, venison, etc.

Most pork bones are fine for medium dogs on up, but smaller dogs will not be able to crunch some of the larger ones. I personally do not feed beef bones. They are generally too dense for all but the giant breed dogs. If your dog is careful and will eat around the bone without breaking his teeth trying to crunch it up, you can feed these “rec” bones. It will give your dog hours of entertainment and you some free time. ;-)

When adding organs, make sure you start small, since they are rich and can cause loose stool before the dog is used to them. Organs are the “powerhouse” when it comes to nutrients, vitamins, etc. If you compare organ meat with vegetables, you’ll find a lot of the same nutrients… but organs have a higher content. That is why dogs do not require veggies… because they’re getting what they need from the 10% organ in their diet. Wolves in the wild may munch on grass or eat stomach content, but they generally do this out of preference rather than need.

You must also add a source of Omega 3. It should be a protein source, and not flax based. Flax is not easily converted by dogs and many of them are actually allergic to it. I used to use salmon oil capsules, but with the recent lawsuits over PCPs in fish oil pills, I’ve started using canned sardines in water. I give each of my dogs a can of sardines 3x per week. A typical week looks like this:

Monday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork, sardines
Tuesday: morning – chicken. Evening – beef, beef liver
Wednesday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork
Thursday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork, sardines
Friday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork, beef liver
Saturday: morning – chicken. Evening – beef, sardines
Sunday: morning – chicken. Evening – pork

I get other kinds of meat (turkey, lamb, etc.) when they are on sale. I get venison whenever I can… it’s the BEST for them…. Plus they love it!

Some final points:

Rawfed dogs:

1) Are eating what is 100% natural for them, meaning they will likely be healthier.

2) Have amazingly white teeth and fresh breath, without the necessity of brushing their teeth or EXPENSIVE vet teeth cleanings.

3) Have tiny small poops (less mess to clean up).

Rawfeeding:
1) Can be cheaper than kibble (post on CL for free/cheap meat, search the weekly ads for meat bargains, buy soon to expire meat, etc.

2) Means no stressful worrying when kibble gets recalled!

3) is EASY! My dog was SUCH a picky eater and ate barely enough to stay alive. Now she eats with gusto and finishes her meal up promptly, meaning I don't have to worrya bout my other dog stealing her food, since he was a living vacuum when it comes to food of any type

Some myths about rawfeeding:
1) Rawfed dogs do NOT become bloodthirsty killers. They may become refrigerator magnets... since the fridge is The Door To All Things Good And Wonderful.

2) Raw meat will not give dogs bacteria/e-coli poisoning. Dogs' digestive systems were made to handle food heavy in bacteria... they are very short and contain strong acid. Kibble takes longer to digest, and that is why you see e-coli/bacteria related recalls with kibble.

3) Raw chicken bones are not dangerous to dogs. Only cooked bones are dangerous, since they become hard and brittle and can splinter.

Don't be surprised if many veterinarians do not support raw feeding. These vets certainly mean well, but were likely given incorrect information in vet school since the very few nutrition courses they took were likely sponsored by a pet food company (usually Hills (Science Diet), Iams or Eukanuba). Pet food companies are, of course, going to say that ONLY dog food is good for dogs. Additionally, with all there is to learn in vet school, there simply is not time to focus too much on nutrition. I have researched extensively and consulted with a canine nutritionist with years of training, schooling (including a master’s degree), research, and personal experience.

For more information, please feel free to:
-Email me at nsimonson1111@yahoo.com
Join the Yahoo Rawfeedinggroup: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/
-Consult with a canine nutritionist: http://www.dogfoodguru.com/
-Check out the following sites:
http://rawfeddogs.net/
http://www.rawfed.com/
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/
http://rawlearning.com/
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/index.html (for finding bone percentages)
 
#27 ·
Rawfed dogs do NOT become bloodthirsty killers. They may become refrigerator magnets... since the fridge is The Door To All Things Good And Wonderful.
So true. Here, because of the culture, people are superstitious. I'd probably get burned if they knew I was feeding raw.

However, I am now feeding Elmo raw because all the good brands are not always available. I found a store that sells Acana but I cannot alternate one type to another, because they only carry one type. I buy sawdust meat upon a cousin's recommendation because it is what she feeds her Dobermans, which is a wonderful a mix of beef and pork lean meat plus the fats and bones. Plus I can buy 2.2 lbs for only a $1 (which is 50 pesos). I add some veggies in it, I use a food processor or a blender. I alternate it with canned tuna and salmon in water. I also feed him raw chicken, chicken liver made his coat shinier because it is rich in Vitamin E (this I got from an Aunt who has Mastiffs). I mix these meats (beef, pork, chicken) and veggies with a cup of cooked white rice.

I'm not biased on any kind of food one feeds his dogs but I noticed that since I fed raw, Elmo's allergies were gone and they have now grown hair, he is "smell-less", more energetic, sleeps well (I'm not sure if this contributes), has shinier hair, and his poop is fine. And at 5 months has a great body.
 
#31 ·
It's not the protein levels that dictate how much to feed, it's the content of the kibble. You feed less grain free kibble then you do regular kibble because it doesn't have all the fillers.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top