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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay guys help me out here. Which is more reliable having a pin hip done or OFA? Or does it make a difference? If there isn't a difference, then which way would you go? Any information on this would be greatly appreciated. :confused:
 

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the negatives of Pennhip are
*they do not have a publically searchable database
*Penhip will NOT verify a dog's evaluation status

additionally the fulcrum method of forcing the hips out to measure the laxity is controversial and not one I want to subject my dogs to especially not growing pups

Right now in the US and Canada OFA is the best one available. The xrays are evaluated by THREE board certified radiologists and compared to same age/sex/breed films to come up with a consensus rating. The rating (even fails if the owner is honest and checks the allow fails to be published line) is publically searchable and even if you don't have a computer, OFA will confirm at least the passing ratings by mail or phone

Cornell university is coming up with what APPEARS to be an even better system where the xray is taken with the dog on it's belly in a special tray that allows the legs to be in a natural weight bearing state. I think this will be better in the long run then OFA or Penhip but time will tell
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank you, thank you, Frontierrots! Good information, I so appreciate it. Thank you too, Kaza for the websites. Some of it was over my head in terms of technical jargon, but other than that, was very informative! :)
 

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Cornell university is coming up with what APPEARS to be an even better system where the xray is taken with the dog on it's belly in a special tray that allows the legs to be in a natural weight bearing state. I think this will be better in the long run then OFA or Penhip but time will tell
That sounds interesting. When PennHip started they claimed it would help eradicate HD in 5 years. Its not widely available here in the UK and I dont know anybody who has used this method.

As for our BVA scheme, well, I have to discs here with all the Hip and Elbow scores of everydog ever xrayed and scored, it doesn't help when people x-ray but dont out them forward for scoring. The disc tells you very little. The fact that you can have a 7 generation pedigree going back to old lines, with say, 6 generations of excellent scores is not an indicator of when poor hips are going to turn up. (Hmm the way some peeps breed these days you could have 7 generations going back to the 90's)

LOL I am thinking its all a bit of a scam!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Kaza, never thought of it that way! Really, . . . the only thing OFA shows it that the dog being tested should or shouldn't be bred, nothing else. And something else to think about, just because a dog fails doesn't mean his/her litters would or wouldn't have bad hips. Sounds like an oxymoron to me! :confused:
 

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Hip ratings ARE useful WHEN you have both depth AND breadth of pedigree in clearances

You want to look for siblings/ 1/2 siblings etc as well as parents (and their siblings/ 1/2 siblings) and grandparents etc.. WHEN you have this info available the ratings DO help make better breeding choices
 

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Well having the 2 CD discs of all the results since the Hip and Elbow Scores started doesn't get more useful than that, as I said before it they reveal very little, there seems to be no rhymn nor reason as to why a very high score should pop up occasionally and perhaps this is because 'enivironmental' factors, such as diet, trauma, weight etc etc figure largely.
 

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Kaza I have no idea what info is on the discs you talk about but I KNOW from 25 years experience with the OFA that if you have a family where almost every dog actually tested passes hips (talking siblings/littermates, 1/2 sibs as well as parents and their siblings and grandparents) and the few that don't are only mild affected in 1 hip there is a MUCH higher probability that the pups they produce will have passing hips then say a family where they have many fails and/or the fails they have are moderate to severe or where the dog being bred is the only one in it's litter to actually pass hip clearance

There simply are lines that are strong for good hips (here and abroad) and some lines that are not regardless of what they are fed or how raised
 

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The discs contain ALL the scores of ALL the dogs ever x-rayed and scored since the BVA Hip scoring scheme began. (And I can proudly say I bred one of the few 0.0 Hips scores in the 80's as on the disc!)

The Discs are in Alphabetical order, contains the date of scoring of each dog, and that dogs Sire and Dam and their scores, so it is easy to do comparissons of littermates, 1/2 siblings, uncles, aunts, cousins G.G.G.G.G. Grandparents etc. As I said, there appears no Rhymn nor reason to when a high hip score is going to turn up

We do not have Passes nor Fails, nor + nor - though I would be intersested to know how these compare with scores. Meaning if somebody imports or uses a dog from Europe that is 'HD Free' if it were x rayed and scored under the BVA scheme how would the 2 compare??

So when I say that you can study the discs to compare, and/or look at Pedigrees with 6 + generations of excellent hips as well to compare, the one in a blue moon doesn't really tell you much.

I know of a European breeder here in the UK that will not use our BVA system anymore and travels their dogs to Europe for X-raying and gets HD Free status, I have seen BVA scores of theirs from 30 ago years when they did use our BVA system too!

Somewhere I have an interesting print off of a past KC comment about 6 -7 years about HD that made me smile when I read it, I will look it out tonight.
 

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I certainly do not think you can discount 'environmental' influences including diet, trauma etc as well as those raised below in a Finnish Study


In May 2006 a study undertaken at the Department of Animal Health Helsinki was published

Estimates of genetic parameters for hip and elbow dysplasia in Finnish Rottweilers

Date from 2764 Rottweilers born from 1987 to 1996 werea analysed with a restricted maximum likelihood procedeure using a mixed linear animal model to obtain component estmates for elbow and hip dysplasia.

The data included 2764 hip dysplasia records and 2278 elbow dysplasia records.

Hip joint were scored as Normal 0 borderline 1 slight 2 severe 4, 4.5 and 5

Elbows were graded normal to borderline 0 slight 1 moderate 2 severe 3

The 'mean' for the hip score was 1.07 and for Elbow .60.

Environmental effects influencing Hip dysplasia were (no mention of diet)
Age
Birth Year
Birth year x Season interaction
Experience of the veterinarian responsible for x-raying the dog

For elbow dysplasia statistically significant effcts were
Age
Birth year
Sex of the dog (OCD is more common in males who are heavier)
Panelist responsible for screening

Estimates of heritability for Hip and Elbow dysplasia were .58+/-.04 and .31+/-0.04 respectively witha genetic correlation of .37+/0.08 bewteen traits

Genetic improvement of almost one genetic deviation was observed in both traits during the 10 years.
 

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There is correlation in hips and elbows I truly believe it, but I believe in environmental factors as well.

If you have a Rottweiler line with the top line heading straight for the ground and their hind legs are over-agulated with the front legs barely touching, all the weight will be pressed on the hips. When they work the stress is going to, yep, the hips.

If you have a Rottweiler line with a straight back, and stiff legs, they wont be able to move properly and when put into any gait higher than a light trot, it's going to stress the elbows a lot from the impacting that the paws must make because there is no 'fluid' motion in their movement because of this boxiness.

If the sire has bad hips, and the dam has excellent hips, it will NOT 'cancel each other out' no matter how much breeders want to believe it. In the first litter, sure, you could have great hips, but 3-4 generations down you can often see the 'fair' showing up. Hip scores are NOT, to me, the only thing you should look at when breeding. You should have good or better hips AND good conformation to match. Rottweilers have a standard for a reason! If you pair a two that will compliment each other in their shoulders, top lines, and how their legs are positioned/agulated, plus they both have good scores, then you can't go wrong further down the line.

If that doesn't make sense, then in simpler terms, if you chose the first line I described to breed, but just use the sire, and he has good hips at age 2, well that means squat. You breed him to a bitch more to the standard with good hips, your first litter can be 100% fine, but the conformation will show up causing pressure on the hips ruining these 'good' hips!

I believe that we should have a study done on Rottweilers where they're tested at 2 years, 4 years, and 7 years old to watch progression of the hips. It's one thing for the pups to have great hips, it's another for them to carry that through their lifetime. I would like to see at what age the trouble begins.. and which ones don't ever develop worse hips, and which dogs those are, to strive for that..

Environment plays a HUGE part. If you start a dog at agility at 6 months, and have them walking up and down stairs by time they're 8 weeks, do you think their hips will be good? I definitely don't think so.. if a dog gets hit by a car at 1 year, and the leg gets twisted and doesn't grow back normally, of course it isn't going to be scored as excellent. If you're feeding a really crappy food and jack the dog up on protein/calcium the second it eats hard food, it will grow rapidly, and its bones wont ever grow as dense and strong as one who was allowed to mature slower.

But that's just my two cents..
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It makes sense to test at different ages. Since hip dysplasia is degenerative over time, it would seem that the dog's hips would get worse over time. if you had a dog who scored, mildly dysplastic at 2 yrs. and scored the same at 7 yrs. would this mean that the dog is dysplastic? Wouldn't this show that these hips, though certainly not great, were genetically normal for this dog? Especially if the dog showed no signs of dysplasia at 2 or at 7. I wonder what the correlation is with regard to humans. If you took x-rays of a child at two and could tell whether the child were to have bad hips later in life. Just wondering.
 

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Personally, I would rather have breeding stock with 'Fair' hips that don't worsen over time even with exercise, than stock that have 'Good' hips that become dysplasac at age 5.

I think this is something worth looking into... I would also like to know how dogs with 'Fair' hips do later depending on how their owners treat them after finding out. You know, some owners take high precaution and feed a good diet that is calcium rich and gives moderate exercise without anything straighting the hips, and some think 'it can't get worse' and maintain the lifestyle the dog was doing before? I would like to know if the first improves or never worsens, or if it doesn't generally help and once a dog is dysplasac there's no going back.

There are a lot of studies that can be performed to help us understand it better.
 

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Good Posts Laughing, you raise many a good point. There is a well known Washington State specialist who believes true HD is over diagnosed and often misdiagnosed and there are those who think Skeletal fluorosis is mistaken for HD

This is quite interesting. Hip Related Degenerative Arthropahy. This is a non-specific condition characterised by degeneration of articular cartilage and bone sclerosis of subchondral bone, joint effusion and fibrosis with calcification of the joint capsule and osteophytes. The earliest changes occur in the acetabulum and onthe dorsomedial surface of the femoral head. Many causes and predisposing factors probably influence the developement, age of onset and severity.

Factors may include inherited disposition. certain conformations, e.g. straight hocks. Joint instability after trauma is a common cause. Nutritional factors involved in some cases are related to imbalance of clacium to phophorus, which probably influences the strength of subchondral bone. Copper deficiency or fluoride poisoning also may act similarly. Incorrect presentation at birth may impede blood supply to the hip joint and arthritis may result. Animals fed high-grain diets may become lame as young as 6 months but most cases are noticed between 1 and 2 years. The role of infection is unclear.

Both hips are normally affected and onset is gradual. Signs progress concomitantly with degeneration of cartilage and the development Lameness to the point of incapacitation with crepitation of degenerate joints may develop in a few months, correlation between pathological changes and clinical signs is poor, diagnosis is difficult because degenarative arthropathy may result from several initiating factors.

So when is HD not HD and why does it not surprise me that after how many decades of hip x-raying, this 'nice little earner' is still no indicator of when HD will turn up!

From the KC 'dog genetic health' page 1/5/2007 '' Hip dysplasia, for example, can be affected by both exercising and feeding'' Ermm well, after all this time of x-raying wouldn't they have a little more to tell us!!

I truely believe that in our breed 'true' HD, seen in pups/juniors with rapid progression, is a small fish in a big pond with other conditions being far more prevelant, e.g. cruciates and other skeletal conditions causing equally the amount of distress as HD and often more so, especially when it comes to conditions affecting the spine which are more common than HD

Whats the point of coming from parentage of good hips and then being diagnosed with a spinal disease which cannot be managed in the same way as HD and leads to early destruction of the dog??

I digress, Tails. By far the most serious faults in the tails are kinks and crooks. How do those with docked dogs ever know if the champion they are about to introduce into their breeding plan, or their own bitch would have had a serious congenital disqualifying fault which when breed to another with the same genetic deficit could be disasterous for the offspring?

Congenital tail defects have been linked to malformation of cervical, thoracic, lumbar or sacral vertebra can cause functional, physical and neurological deficits. Also,congenital tail defects have been linked to defects in the organ system which has been proven, not only in dogs, but in many other animals.

Here in the UK we have a kennel that gave themselves a good head start and learnt their stuff about tails in Europe and have had tailed dogs for many years before the UK docking ban came in. They will not tolerate any deviation of any sort so such dogs will never enter their well established breeding program.

Never mind hip and elbow scoring I believe some sort Certificate of Pass for the tail is even more important. Kind of puts a new spin on the saying 'tell-tale-signs' doesn't it?

Sorry to have hijacked your thread Jan !
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Not at all, Kaza. You have brought up several good points. The tails, for example, though digressing from the hips, is an excellent point. Though I prefer my rotties docked, I totally get it in regard to not knowing whether a dog has a faulty tail which would prevent them from being bred. After January we won't have to worry about this as docking will be banned here as well. I am learning great things here that I would not otherwise have learned. All of you are far more knowledgeable than I am on this topic, that is why I brought it up. I am enjoying listening and learning. :)
 

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I loved your point Kaz.

How are we to know truly what causes it, what really IS HD, better treatment, etc if there aren't hypothesis being tested on it?? You'd think with such a serious issue in breeds more would be wanting to do this.. Why are there some dysplasac dogs that never worsen, and others fully crippled and euthanized by 18 months? Doesn't really add up, does it?

I think calcium-phosphate ratio plays a part as well.. That's why I never want beginners to raw feed until they understand the balance better, it can harm their dog quickly! Grain as well... bad news! Nutrition is a big thing... that's why I cringe whenever I hear people with large to giant dogs feeding....... puppy food! I will smack the next person I hear saying this! The nutritional value of those feeds are so ridiculous and off the chart for what a large puppy should need. No, 'depriving' them of protein and calcium will not make them grow less and you'll have a miniature dog, it SLOWS growth down so instead of being at their maximum size by age 1, it takes them til 2-3 years of age to grow to their height/weight, and by then they are almost fully developed.

Ooh, that brings up a nice point... You know how young larger dogs have a hard time controlling their bladders? Because their muscle can't keep up to their rapid growth? I wonder if this has relevance towards the cruciate ligament or muscles supporting the hips... Perhaps, when pushed to rapid growth, the ligament doesn't have time to fully develop to support the bones, causing HD, and unnecessarily weakening/straining the cruciate? Or muscles can't fully develop, or poorly develop, and cannot support hip movement properly when exercising, straining the cruciate because of improper development?

Unfortunately, so many dogs have crooks in their tails. HD doesn't both me as much as spinal issues... I would hate by age 1 for my pup to have a crooked spine and it pinch nerves causing un-fixable paralysis, or even potential neurological damage. Why isn't this ever mentioned in breeder programs? I feel bad for less experienced owners who don't know this is possible and have it happen to them.

I prefer the Rottweiler docked, but don't mind either way. So banning doesnt bother me one tad! It doesn't 'make or break' the breed for me at all, and I think it will help many people with their lines. The tails need some fixing in too many lines!

Kaz, which breeder is that??
 

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The point about the raw feeding Laughing is that nutrients in their natural form are not harmful, when you study the nutrient information of a carcass its all in perfect balance with each other. Look deeper and you will find is the supplemental nutrients and sometimes that which is added to Complete formulas which can cause the problems.

Some interesting info here in spinal issues
Merck Veterinary Manual

and here
Merck Veterinary Manual

Going back to diet, take Neural tube disorders e.g congenital myelodysplasia (spinal dysraphism) usually associated with vit B deficiency and B complex abberrations BUT more recently it has emerged mycotoxins can be teratogenic and cause NTD's.

Toxic and carcinogenic mycotoxins can contaminate animal cereal feeds (rice, corn soy etc) in amounts too small for chemical detection and can completey interfere with the function of membrane proteins leading to neural tube and other birth defects. Mostly NTD's are apparent at birth or soon after especially in certain breeds but what if some of them are latent and appear at a much later age in larger breeds as cysts etc. Or are indeed introduced via 'environmental contamination' e.g contamination of vaccines, etc

I know of a recent middle aged male Rott who developed a cyst on his spine and continued to produce litters by means of AI - WTF is that all about, are people completely stupid!! T'was all kept hush hush except for one big gob!

All things to consider when you think spinal disorders and neural lesions are among differential diagnosis for HD or can be concurrent with HD.

Much more to consider re growth and diet though

JAN - are you saying docking is deffo going to be banned - is that in certain States or everywhere in the US?

LOL - I LOVE a tail, heres Ollie Grandpa having a ball and his tail shows it!
 

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The thing I was saying about raw is some just feed their dog whatever... here's some ground beef, a slab of steak, etc without thought. I know people who don't feed organ meat or bones! Then there's people that give a balanced diet, then throw in processed treats or mix with dog food and other junk like that which defeats the purpose... I am on your side Kaz! :)

I would have neutered that dog right there! Crazy people!

January '12 docking is stopped in all sates in the US. Not sure if it is banned, or if AKC and other shows are no longer allowing docked Rottweilers? I have heard of it getting violent so now it's a rule that everyone needs to be natural so none of that nonsense goes on anymore, and it's fair to everyone. So basically all the reputable breeders are stopping docking as of January. If it really is banned, BYBs will have a run for their money! ;)
 

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January '12 docking is stopped in all sates in the US. Not sure if it is banned, or if AKC and other shows are no longer allowing docked Rottweilers? I have heard of it getting violent so now it's a rule that everyone needs to be natural so none of that nonsense goes on anymore, and it's fair to everyone. So basically all the reputable breeders are stopping docking as of January. If it really is banned, BYBs will have a run for their money! ;)
That is a HIGHLY inaccurate statement. No such thing is happening. Dogs who show in the USRC need to follw the no docking after 2012 thing but that is all. No such banning is happening in the US nor will it anytime soon. People may dock or not- THEIR choice now and after 1/1/2012 as well it should be

as far as hip dysplasia goes it is a poly genetic trait (meaning it IS inherited but multiple genes and locus are involved) BUT the degree to which a dog EXPRESSES the gene if it has a faulty one CAN be determined by food, weight and environment. MEANING if a dog has the genes to have hip dysplasia but is fed a good diet and supplements, kept lean and exercised with thought and care and not allowed to throw itself off decks or whatever then the odds are high it will have mild HD. If however the same dog is fed crap OR fat OR has a poor environment then the same dog might mature with very bad hips. If the dog has multiple bad hip genes (remember it is polygenetic) then it can have quite bad hips even with the best care

THAT is why you need to look at all the xrayed relations siblings as well as direct ancestors
 
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