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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
HELLO GUYS,


new here in the thread. Can you please help me how to train my 7 month old Male Rott to stack? thanks
 

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Hi ! Welcome aboard !


Ahhh, I am trying to figure out the same thing. With very young puppies they sometimes train them on a table. They back them right to the edge and actually push them off backwards to teach them to lean forward. It is hard for me to explain in words but I will try and find you some info. I am lost when it comes to a bigger dog... I need to teach mine the same thing. I'm sure that if you check back tomorrow someone will leave you some useful information. You can look at this link for now ....http://www.jantavia.com/showing.htm And there is some info on this site if you scroll down to the dog show section maybe you will find something useful http://www.vomlowenherzigrottweilers.com/articles.html There is a TON of good info on that site and the people are very nice and willing to answer any questions you may have.


There are a couple of members here who may be able to help also because they do some of that show stuff



Again, welcome aboard
 

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Hi Elmo , and welcome to the site !! Donna here may be able to help you with stacking ...


Dan you crack me up
 

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<DIV>


Besides following along on the above listed links. There is a book called "The Ultimate Rottweiler" by Andrew Brace, second edition.It has pictures with detailedinstructions on "How To" stack for different venues.Liz Dunhill,the person in the pictures doing the actual handling,is a well-known accomplished handler/breeder/judge from the UK, that alsoenjoys visiting us here in the States.
I highly recommend getting this book for this purpose, as well as, other useful basic breed information on conformation, obedience, correct structure, etc. (check out other books below)


You may also want to get help from a professional handler and your breeder (if they show) to help you with the proper training for the conformation ring. They will also discuss with you, if it is worth the effort to move forward towards a championship,or just have your dog spay/neuter and not try the breed ring. If your dog is worthy, go to a local dog training facility that does teach proper conformation classes and they'll help you greatly!


As far asthecommentaboutshow dogs being pushed off of a grooming table... they do use this as a tool, but it isn't as bad as it sounds. Also, there is a newer form of helping puppies learning to stack, in record time. They use a device known as "Happy Legs" that teaches the puppies to stand stay where you want them to be! However, you must understand correct stacking procedures before using this, so you don't train your dog incorrectly.


Happy Legs


Below is an article I wrote... hopefully it can help.
Here are some basic concepts for those interested in conformation dog showing that you need to know before you get that CH. title in front of your dogÂ’s name.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" />

First, you should study your breed’s standard, so you can get a better understanding of the dog’s conformation. Then you should attend a local dog show, without a dog, tagging along beside you. You have much too see and do, so less distractions for you, is best. Besides, a dog not entered, is not allowed on show grounds. Purchase a show catalog when you arrive, visit with as many breeds as you can at “Ring side”, and try to follow along with the different classes held in your catalog. Each breed starts with males, then females, and finishes with Best of Breed that includes both genders and finished champions (specials). As you watch, study each dog within the breeds, to get a better understanding of their different conformation and type.

While your there, talk with and observe the multitude of groomers, handlers, breeders, and exhibitors. Walk around the show site collecting information at the superintendentÂ’s desk, vendors, booths, viewing how the set-ups are (behind the scenes) to gather how otherÂ’s act, prepare, and participate, asking many questions along your way. Do plan to stay for the whole day to watch groups and Best in Show!

After youÂ’ve purchased a show prospect from a reputable breeder with the same views and qualities you have in mind to achieve with your dog, youÂ’ve put the process in motion. After all, if you donÂ’t have a good foundation with a solid background to start with, then this will limit your abilities to go farther with your goals. To achieve such a dog, itÂ’s a good idea to read the following article:

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l7 level1 lfo4; tab-stops: list .5in">What to do before I buy that puppy</LI>[/list]

Next is tedious and a very important part that you cannot skip or over-look, to prepare your ultimate show dog. You must train your dog and yourself to be competitive and develop that certain edge over other entries. In doing so, you and your dog will be more relaxed and enjoy this time together. If not, you and your companion might dread just going for a normal car ride, thinking that youÂ’re taking him/her to a dog show that already lead to a horrible experience.

Some basic important behaviors your dog must accomplish in the ring are:

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l12 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Attention – knowing what this means, on cue, expression and attitude</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l12 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Listen and know basic commands – watch, stand, stay, let’s go, open mouth, tail, leave-it, move - back, forward, sideways, one paw, etc.</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l12 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Bond and work as a team with the handler – including the owner & trainer</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l12 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Ignoring other dogs in and out of the ring – minding the handler at all times</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l12 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Crate trained – knowing how to well behave while in crate at any venue</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l12 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Not be stressed – being able to handle travel, strangers, new places, etc.</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l12 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Grooming – all dogs must look their best & be presentable at all times</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l12 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Gait – learning proper movement and direction given, leash training</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l12 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Examine – stand/stay & be touched all over by complete strangers</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l12 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Socialize – to all surroundings and situations, inside and outside</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l12 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Free stack – standing on own, not touched, while being baited</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l12 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Stacked – placed by hand into a stand/stay without resistance</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l12 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Exercise – physically fit, muscled, and proper body weight</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l12 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Basic obedience – if your dog doesn’t behave well, it’s not going to win</LI>[/list]

There are many others to list, but they can all be learned when attending good quality conformation classes and sanctioned fun matches on a regular basis. Be sure to read books, articles, and magazines on the subject of showing dogs and also attend handling seminars. There is also an additional tool for training dogs that can help, if used correctly, known as “Happy Legs”.

Enter fun matches before entering pointed shows. These shows are always geared with learning and training in mind. When youÂ’ve polished all this and more, you might be ready to now enter a pointed show. Start out slowly, entering a show here and there, and have fun! Go to smaller more relaxed shows, so you and the dog can get a feel for whatÂ’s ahead.

When entering pointed shows you must have a properly aged purebred registered dog with the kennel club that you are attending. There are several clubs that have conformation dog shows and/or working trials inside and/or outside. There are different superintendents that you enter under, depending on which dog show you attend, so you need to play close attention when entering! Furthermore, some of these clubs/shows are known to be more relaxed and casual then others, depending if theyÂ’re benched or unbenched shows, so learn the differences when attending a show to properly prepare you and your dog. You must also plan ahead because most dog shows have early closing dates for entries several weeks before the show. Only selective kennel clubs have day of show entries, but you still must arrive at the correct time, to get your entries in!

Show entries, are taken by superintendents, in several different ways:

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l13 level1 lfo5; tab-stops: list .5in">Mail</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l13 level1 lfo5; tab-stops: list .5in">Fax</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l13 level1 lfo5; tab-stops: list .5in">Phone</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l13 level1 lfo5; tab-stops: list .5in">Online</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l13 level1 lfo5; tab-stops: list .5in">SuperintendentÂ’s desk at a show or hand delivery to main office</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l13 level1 lfo5; tab-stops: list .5in">Show photographers – depending on the kennel club registry</LI>[/list]

A basic list of the main clubs for American/Canadian Rottweiler competitors:

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l14 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in">American Kennel Club – well recognized and formal</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l14 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in">Canadian Kennel Club – well recognized and semi-formal to formal</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l14 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in">United Kennel Club – somewhat recognized and relaxed to semi-formal</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l14 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in">United States Rottweiler Club – well recognized and get ready to run!</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l14 level1 lfo2; tab-stops: list .5in">American Rottweiler Verein – somewhat recognized and relaxed</LI>[/list]

There are also breed specialties, sweepstakes, and futurity shows that are not pointed, but highly recognized and respected among fellow breeders and exhibitors. Besides, these are just plain fun! Generally, the clubs above have hosted clubs, such as the American Rottweiler Club, that officiate these types of shows. Some are independent shows, which are Rottweilers only, and then others are all-breed or multi-breed shows, with regular classes that offer points.

All-breed basically means that all the breeds recognized by the registered kennel club can enter the show, with some exceptions. For instance, a specific breed may not be judged at that show due to not finding a judge for that day. Otherwise, they all participate. Multi-breed shows are only select breeds that can enter. For instance, some UKC shows or special group shows, like only the working group will be judged for that day.

Classes, points, critiques, ratings, titles, scores, and awards earned can range differently from each club you participate in. These ranges can differ in venue, show giving kennel clubs, and the amount of dogs entered, depending on which shows you entered. The kennel clubs will maintain points, but itÂ’s ultimately the ownersÂ’ responsibility to manage, verify, and understand the differences of each club and show. If you care to know how each club manages your dogÂ’s earnings/wins in the judgeÂ’s book, which classes to properly enter your dog, and how/where to enter a dog show, you can easily visit their web sites, purchase or view an online detailed rules/guidelines handbook to conformation dog shows.

A basic list of helpful sites for conformation dog shows:

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l15 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list .5in">American Kennel Club – point schedule</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l15 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list .5in">American Kennel Club – counting points/title explained</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l15 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list .5in">American Kennel Club – getting started, a beginner’s guide</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l15 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list .5in">American Rottweiler Club – calendar of events</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l15 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list .5in">Canadian Kennel Club – shows and trials FAQ</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l15 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list .5in">United Kennel Club – conformation titles explained</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l15 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list .5in">InfoDog – dog show calendar for AKC events, including fun matches</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l15 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list .5in">InfoDog – enter an AKC dog show online</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l15 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list .5in">Rottweiler Club of Canada – coming events</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l15 level1 lfo3; tab-stops: list .5in">The Entry Line – online entries for the most popular CKC dog shows</LI>[/list]


Hopefully, this will help you get in the right direction to start entering in conformation dog shows. Remember to keep your head held high in this sport because every dog entered cannot go home with a win, even though they may be worthy of such an award. Every dog show is a new day! Meaning, anything can and will happen at a dog show, even at a long show circuit. Best of luck and have fun!

<H2 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Recommended Books</H2>

Breed Books

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l4 level1 lfo16; tab-stops: list .5in">The Ultimate Rottweiler; by Andrew Brace</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l4 level1 lfo16; tab-stops: list .5in">Rottweiler: Centuries of Service by Catherine Thompson and Linda Michaels</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l4 level1 lfo16; tab-stops: list .5in">Complete Rottweiler; by Muriel Freeman</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l4 level1 lfo16; tab-stops: list .5in">Basic Guide to the Rottweilers; by several breeders</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l4 level1 lfo16; tab-stops: list .5in">The Rottweiler Today;by Judy Elsden, Larry Elsden</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l4 level1 lfo16; tab-stops: list .5in">Rottweilers for Dummies (series); by Richard Beauchamp</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l4 level1 lfo16; tab-stops: list .5in">The Rottweiler; by Richard F Stratton</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l4 level1 lfo16; tab-stops: list .5in">Rottweilers: An Owner's Companion; by Les Price</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l4 level1 lfo16; tab-stops: list .5in">Rottweiler: A Comprehensive Guide to Owning and Caring For Your Dog; (Kennel Club Books series)</LI>[/list]

1) Rottweiler Experience;by Joan Klem
2) Proper Care of Rottweilers; by Joan Klem and Susan Rademacher
3) How to Raise and Train a Rottweiler; by Joan Klem (video) Ultimate Goals
for TodayÂ’s Rottweiler; by Joan Klem

1) The Professional's Book of Rottweilers; by Anna Katherine Nicholas
2) Book of the Rottweiler; by Anna Katherine Nicholas
3) A Complete Introduction to Rottweilers; by Anna Katherine Nicholas
4) The World of Rottweilers; by Anna Katherine Nicholas


<H1 style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Showing</H1>

<UL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =disc>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l10 level1 lfo17; tab-stops: list .5in">The Winning Edge: Show Ring Secrets; by George Alston</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l10 level1 lfo17; tab-stops: list .5in">Show Me!: A Dog Showing Primer; by D. Caroline Coile</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l10 level1 lfo17; tab-stops: list .5in">The Absolute Beginner's Guide to Showing Your Dog; by Cheryl S. Smith</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l10 level1 lfo17; tab-stops: list .5in">New Secrets of Successful Show Dog Handling; by Peter Green</LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l10 level1 lfo17; tab-stops: list .5in">Dog Showing For Beginners; by Lynn Hall </LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l10 level1 lfo17; tab-stops: list .5in">The Road to Westminster: How to Select and Train a Purebred Dog and Prepare It for the Show Ring; by Robert B. Freeman, Toni C. Freeman </LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l10 level1 lfo17; tab-stops: list .5in">Dual Ring Dog/ Successful Training for Both Conformation and Obedience Competition; by Jacqueline Fraser, Amy Ammen </LI>
<LI =MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l10 level1 lfo17; tab-stops: list .5in">Beyond Obedience: Training with Awareness For You and Your Dog; by April Frost, Rondi Lightmark </LI>[/list]
written by Jo Ann Lewis</DIV>
 

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Think I'm going to hit Borders or Barnes and Noble tomorrow. I need my help fast. I'm leaving here for North Carolina show on Wednesday


Gretchen needs help but I couldn't bring her for training this past few weeks because she is in heat. I think that finally ended today
 

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well lets NOT hear you been pushing her off any tables

lets NOT be like " them "

those people should be brought up on animal cruelty charges

dont wanna hear that CRAP about for show either



come on man you rescue .... thats proly where my dog came

from one too many times off the table and bumped his head



well good luck in the Carolina's .....


and remember WINNING is NOT everything .......







*&^$#$%&( off the table (*&%##$%^& GRRRRRRRRRRRRR
 

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hey dan, I don't think they push them off onto the floor LOL. I think they hold their hand back there to catch them. They just want them to learn to push theirself forward
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
hi guys, reallly appreciate your help.sorry for the late reply



thanks for the links you attached. sorry but i cant have my pup stack on top of the table anymore..thanks again for the help...
 

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lots of people use happy legs to train their dogs to stack.I feel this is a forum of cheeting,if your dog can not hold a stack on it's own it is not structurly sound and should not be forced to do it.


I hate those happy legs.Kind of like ear taping to me,I will never do it again.If your dog does not have a right ear set don't tape them to make them,it is altering the dog,IMO
 

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Harley went to handling classes, and let me tell you no matter what we did, he hated it. I showed him once. Never again for this poor guy. He was miserable. We chose a new venue. OB ring.
 

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some dogs don't like it and should not be shown,but if they do like it and they can do it naturaly then show them,but when you start making them stand a certain way or alter them to make them show worthy they they should not be shown.
 

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To only discusssome issues, that was brought up in regards to this thread, I have the following to comment on, so those that need to understand correctly, can do so, with all the information that has been submitted to them.(IMO)


A tool to teach a dog to stand/stay, is not altering the dog's structure, or being "per-say" forced, or a form of cheating.(IMO) If anything, I've seen many novice handler's force a dog standing on the ground and/or mats, more times then I can count, into very painful positions, because the handlerdidn't understand what the heck theywere doing!!! They didn't first use the Happy Legs, or another type of tool like a grooming and/or stackingtable,and injured the dog for life, onmore then one occasion!!! That sound is the worst "yip" you could possibly hear, next to a broken leg hitting on cement! At least with a safe effectivenon-skid surface, as atool, the handler learns within a parameter how to stack correctly, while not injuring the dog. (IMO) or should I say, Iexperiencedthese ordealsfirst-hand!


If anyone wants to understand that the dog is nothurt, altered,or forced, and doesn't get hurt if they fall - at such a small distance off the ground, etc., just look at the pictures off of the Happy Legs site and come to your own conclusions!!! (IMO) If you ask me, the dog (Mastiff on thehome page)is relaxed, and is enjoying it! Do yousee in the picturethe dogs legs/pawssawedoff, nailed to the legs,or any part of the body altered in any fashion,to make them look better structurally, so they fit on the Happy Legs nicely? It is impossible to change/alter the structure of any dog using Happy Legs!


I could go so far to say that handler's stacking dogs in the ring DOES alter the natural look, ofany dog, so we shouldn't do that anymore! That's about as ridiculous as it all sounds. The conformation ring asks handlers to stack dogs in a certain fashion, so we have to teach the dogs to this, so theyCAN compete. Until they stop stacking dogs in conformation rings, we will continueto abide by the rules, so we can have a chance to finish our dogs. There is nothing wrong with different training methods, so long as it used only as a tool, and nothing more. (IMO)


Since you are not permanently/surgically doing anything to the dog, besides teaching ita basic commands, I don't understand how you would be altering the dog? (IMO) Don't we use collars and leads as tools to teach commands? Same concept, just different training methods! (IMO)


On the other topic of taping ears for our breed. Thishas been done on several breeds for several centuries andit's nothing new, as is, this debate!It really doesn't alter the dog's ear set, unless you have the ear's cropped, and use braces properly, for great lengths of time. For instance, the Doberman. And by the way,their breed standard does allow this. It isn't considered altering according to the AKC rules and since we don't crop ears, there is no concern over this!On a Rott, the owner is just fussing over the ears, so they think that taping works, but it really doesn't.Taping isnot permanent, and it never alters anything onthis breed anyways, unless you surgically have something corrected, then I would say it is altering.Besides,taping earshas nothing to do with what I'm talking about in this thread. Nothing is actually attached to the dog's body,in any manner, they only stand on it, when using Happy Legs. (IMO)


Even though I've never used this tool myself... "Happy Legs".... I've heard from the best pro-handlers, it works wonderfully. And I have personally seen it work on the oldest of dogs of any breed. This is why Iposted it in this thread.... the originalauthor of this thread wants to learn how to stack properly, an older puppy. With this tool, your teaching the dog to stand/stay, nothing more! (IMO)


As is, the tablecomments that seems to have gotten everyone whacked out about it. Moving and placing a dog on a non-slid surface grooming table - is an everyday event for show dogs. Your teaching it not to move and to trust the person!!! Have any of you put an adultRott orlarge breed dog on a grooming table? They have no room to move and they must stand/stay or they will fall off on their own, and they should not move while being groomed, otherwise, they might end up being permanently altered, accidentally!!! They need to learn the basics, if you want to show and groomthem! It's for their safety, it's not to harm them, and it's not cruel!!! If you don't know what I'm talking about, maybe you should visit some dog showstoo totally understand what it's all about, before commenting on the subject. (IMO)


Anyways, anything I say, shouldalways be consider and a"Give in" that it is (IMO) and not someone else's. Unless they're the original author to something else that was said or written, inwhich case, I would given them credit to their own words. Otherwise, from now on, sothe membersknow in the future, this is(IMO), to try to help people get their own (IMO's)! If this is too hard to understand, then just read this - it'salwaysa poster'sopinion, whensomething iswrittenon a public thread/forum/list, and everyone should know this already without having to put (IMO)!!!!
 

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Again your opinion on what others know before commenting

not to upset anyone

( IMO ) it IS cruel !!!!

( IMO ) it is cruel to even try to make MONEY off of these dog by

showing them ....

Dont care what it costs you to do it ..... thats YOUR problem ( IMO )

as lomg as there are uppity people trying to make show dogs and

neutering them and throwing them away cause they didnt WIN ....

then there will always be a rescue for those of us that DO rescue

and ( IMO ) all this " save the breed " " better the breed " sounds great

proly helps you sleep good at night .....

But of course this is MY OPINION and it is as good as anyone elses

I dint just join ggarr to adopt yet another rottweiler and apply to

open my home to foster because i dont care about the BREED and

i dint wanna help the HOMELESS ...... and as far as what i KNOW

i dont think your opinion counts ..... you do it your way and i will do

mine .... we both are trying to help an animal we love .....


how can you be any righter then me ????? because i dont " show "

i show my dog daily ..... the community at large is our ring .....

i wouldnt BUY a dog from anywhere ..... i would rather SAVE a life

( I M O )
 

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I can see handlers using happy legs as then they don't have to spend time really working with the dog to stack on it's own,but to force it to by stacking on the happy legs.It is done just to win,even if the dog is not structurly correct it can be forced to learn to stack on the happy legs.


Just because other people do things does not make it right.Taping is still altering as it changes to way the ears are laying naturaly.Am.Staff people even tape ears to make it look like the dog has the correct ear carraige when it does not-Cheating and lying to the general public and future puppy buyers.Just to win.





http://www.amstaffs.net/eargluing.htm
 

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I honestlyfeel very sorry for the novice people wanting to learn all they can about our breed, canines, andthe sports we participate in.


To the original poster - I hope somedayyou can find what you're looking for.
 

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barcurdan said:
it is cruel to even try to make MONEY off of these dog byshowing them .... Dont care what it costs you to do it ..... thats YOUR problem ( IMO )

Why do you think people are making money, when they're showingtheir own dogs, when they are actually spending money? Why do you think I have a problem that it costs me money? I never said I did. Do you mean other people have a problem with this? I'm just trying to understand your comments.


People don't make money off of showing dogs, in fact, theyloose a great deal of money. It's fine that you don't care if they loose money,they don't show to makeother people happy.Your statementcan really speaks volumes, onhow you generally feel about the sport, the dogs,and the people involved.


I know for a fact,showing sure isn't too make money!If that's the case, I must be doing something wrong after all these years... because I haven't, not one penny!!! I'm not complaining, just stating a fact. Have you seen the cost of entries, let alone gas, these days?People that have cried about loosing money are doing soto make a point about breeding and showing dogs properly, nothing more. If youreallydo understand theconcept ofwhy there is the purebred sport of dog shows, it seems like you wouldn't say what you did.


Dog ownershavea God given right to show and literally wastea great deal of their own hard earned money on theirown dogs if they want too. What part of that is cruel?A person pampering and spending quality time withtheir well behaved and trained dog? I don't get the cruelty in that, unless your talking on the lines about certain people breeding their dogs, but that's entirely another topic I won't even get into right now, in this thread.


barcurdan said:
as lomg as there are uppity people trying to make show dogs and neutering them and throwing them away cause they didnt WIN .... then there will always be a rescue for those of us that DO rescue and ( IMO ) all this " save the breed " " better the breed " sounds great proly helps you sleep good at night .....

Uppity people? Is it wrong to be proud of an earned accomplishment or task with your dog, when one worked hard to achieve it? I see people all day long enjoying and being proud of their own dogs - and most of them are altered pets! Just watch theLetterman late night show or on the animal planet whenthey havepet tricks on. I'm glad that people are doing at least something with their dogs!


I don't know how many dogs you've personally come acrossin that manner that you arediscussing. However, reputable breeders that do care about their dogs don't personally place them in rescue, and they do buy them back, placing them in a new home. Could these type of people actually be novice type owners and not be the actual breeder/ownersthat didn't contact their breeders before placing them in rescue? Or could they be a product of several generations of BYB dogs out of someone's show dogfrom the past? Ifone canresearcha dog's pedigree and were explained in detail what really didhappen, from those breedersinvolved, most of the time, the reputable breeders were lied too, hadtheir dogsinformation usedin fraudulent manners,and were usually taken advantage of for a breeding. Usually, thereare more details to the rescue stories then what you're talking about.


Furthermore, I'm well aware of the issues about rescue, and so are most people. Our first and secondRottweiler were froma rescue,directly out ofBYB breeding.Their original or second or third owners that didn't care about their dogs, didn't want them anymore.They weren't directly fromany reputable show breeders.My entire family has literally adopted a pet from a rescue, shelter, etc. their entire livesof owning dogs.


I think it's wonderful that you rescue and work for them! I understand the frustration of people that work in rescue. However, the problem with dogs ending up in rescue,the majority are from unethical breeders not doing there job,that areknown as BYB, that don't show, and don't breed for the right reasons!


I've also personally rescued strayed dogs in our breed and placed them in pet homes for no cost or reimbursement. So has many people that areinvolved with the breed, even some that are not actually involved. I'veeducated and preached to many people about the topic, for many years, and begged them to adopt, even before buying a puppy from a breeder!I've donated myown money that could have went too my own dogsso I couldshow them or whatever, or could have purchasedsomething personal I wanted, but didn't, because I did care about those dogs, even though I'm not the one responsible for them being there in the first place! I'm not the original breeder of those dogs, and if I was, they would have been in my care, not rescue! I have placed puppies, out of a singlebreeding, out of my own stud dog, because the breeder didn't take action, and I did. I have it in my stud contract that I will do so!!!Did I loose money to buy back and place this now unwanted dog? Yes!!! The welfare of that dog was more important too me and so it is with all reputable breeders. Circumstances cannot always be explained in full length and it's not right to lump everyone into a specific category and say they are all like that!


As far as me getting a good night of sleep. If I have a problem that I'm responsible for, or have created one on my own, or I need to make any responsible decisions, I do my best, and that is allany one person can do!If anyone would sit and literally dwell upon something, and not actually do something about it, what good is going to come out of that?Youare helping the ones you can, I understand this!!!! That is more then what some do... I know this because you say you do, and I'm grateful for your work, as well as the others, that work in rescue. I don't have an issue with people working in rescue.


barcurdan said:
you do it your way and i will domine .... we both are trying to help an animal we love ..... how can you be any righter then me ????? because i dont " show " i show my dog daily ..... the community at large is our ring .....
i wouldnt BUY a dog from anywhere ..... i would rather SAVE a life( I M O )

I don't recall saying that I'm right and you're wrong about anything. Especially, if one shows their dog or not.


My above comment: "If you don't know what I'm talking about, {this is about dogs being trained properly on a grooming table} maybe you should visit some dog showstoo totally understand what it's all about, before commenting on the subject."


This is onlyin regards to the dog's being trained on a grooming table, IF you didn't know or understandwhat I was saying, andnothing more! I didn't say you didn't know anything about rescue, about the breed, dogs, etc. I don't know, what you know...... only you know that!


Again, the reason I stated this... IF you saw how this was done and the purpose behind it, you would not callthis particular actcruelty to animals!!!! I've seen cruelty first-hand, as I'm sure you have thru rescue, and this particular act doesn't even come close!I don't get your logic behind it.It is only one of many training methods, that can be used, and is known to be used, to train your dog, even if it isn't a show dog.Just someone's pet that needs to be professionallygroomed or have an examination by a vet needs to learn to stand/stay on a grooming table! That's the whole reasoning behind this one discussion... people need to understand that there are more then one way to train without it being cruel.


Furthermore, I applaud the fact that you do show your dogs on a daily activity in the community!!!! That's Great!!!! Also, if you choose to only adopt that is wonderful for you and the life of a dog!!!! Good for you!!! I'm not judging you... so people that show and breed dogs ethically and are responsible for their actions, shouldn't be judged either, nor should they beplaced in this "All-are-the-Same" type of thinking.


Anyways, that part of the (IMO).... is a pet peeve of mine.I said that, and included it on purpose in my post, notfor anyone directly, and I see you thought I meant you.Others, have also used it. In fact, it seems like you thought my response was all directed towards you, it was not. Instead, it was just to educate the person with the original question.


(IMO)wasto make a point! I've seenit on forums, lists, email,etc., until IÂ’m blue in the face, and I thought speaking out about it would get people to understand thatwe all knowit's your (IMO) already, that's why you posted, and you don't have to use those abbreviations anymore!


Understand me now? I hope so!</DIV></DIV>
 

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Ya Ya Ya Bla Bla Bla

it wasnt MY post that said who ever thinks its cruel doesnt know

anything and should learn before they comment !!!!
 

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Relax everyone , we don't need anybody getting a
over stacking a dog. This entire thread went no place. Someone wanted to know about stacking a dog and we end up in a argument over all sorts of stuff from making money to taping ears.


I am not planning on making any money thats for sure. My trip this weekend is going to cost quite a bit and that doesn't even cover the 13 hours of driving each way. I'm not doing it to make money or be uppity , I'm doing it to have some fun and meet other people with the same interests as me. I'm going down there with a dog who isn't perfect and I don't expect to win. BUT, we are going to do something together and have some fun. I am going to come home happy with my head in the air no matter what. If we are carrying a trophy that will be even more fun. I think she has a lot more positives than negatives and only this show will tell me for sure.


As for taping her ears... it didn't seem to help , OH WELL ! I can't ever remember miss America being looked down upon for a boob job or hair color change, or a little plastic surgery. Why do some people make such a big deal over a perfect dog ?


If I went out and paid good money for 100 puppies how many of them would actually have what it takes to be a perfect dog ? I'm taking my FREE dog and we going to have some fun !!!
 
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