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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We were chatting about breeding rquirements in Germany the other day.If evry breeder here had to do this there would be alot less puppies.
<DIV id=post_message_614857>Zuchttauglichkeitsprufung (called the ZTP or BST) translates as "breeding suitability test," and certifies that a Rottweiler is acceptable as breeding stock. In Germany, a Rottweiler must attain this degree before being bred. The ARV offers the ZTP to its members. The dog to be tested must be at least 18 months of age and be tattooed. The dog must not have any disqualifying faults according to the January 16, 1996, FCI standard. The dog must have successfully completed an ARV BH or a VDH sanctioned BH. The ZTP is provisionally awarded until the dog attains OFA certification or has ADRK HD hip approval.
There are several phases in the ZTP. First, the dog is measured and weighed. A conformation critique is given, which includes the dog's eye color and any abnormalities in dentition.
The dog then performs a light obedience pattern during which a gun is fired twice, to test the dog's sureness in the face of noise. The dog must heel through a crowd and allow several people to close in on him without a display of fear or unwarranted aggression.
The dog is then rated on the characteristics of self sufficiency, temperament, tractability, courage, protection drive, excitability, fearlessness, attentiveness, mistrust, fighting drive, and hardness. All of these, plus the reaction to the gunshots, are noted on the dog's ZTP form, along with his measurements and critique, which is kept on record by the ARV and entered into the Körbuch. The ARV strongly holds that the ZTP is imperative to preserve the correct Rottweiler in both conformation and character, and is highly recommended for all dogs before breeding. In addition to the gun sureness test and the crowd test, a courage test is also performed. In the courage test, the Rottweiler must bite the padded sleeve on the agitator's arm, take threats of two hits over the withers with a padded stick, be driven in the fight, and release the sleeve upon command at least once during the exercises. Then the Rottweiler must guard the agitator until the judge signals the handler to pick up his dog.</DIV>
 

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Thanks Donna for that info.


I wasn't picking at anyone the other day when I brought that up, just pointing out that dogs over there are bred differently than here. If you took all of that into consideration , the Germans would classify MOST of our top breeders as backyard breeders. I think that there are only one or two american bred dogs who have passed that test one of them being that dog I had mentioned to you the other day( Fausto ).


You are right about one thing, there sure would be a lot less unwanted dogs / puppies if every breeder followed the above guidlines. People would have to pay a lot more but the quality of dog would seem to be a much better value. It wouldn't stop backyard breeding but it would do a lot to keep this breed what it should be.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
There are quite a few dogs who have their Ztp here.If you belong to the German Rottweiler club it is a must on all dogs before being bred.


Yes the Germans do look down on American breeding.They sell all their crap to us and we use it for breeding.They would never buy from us.


Donna
 

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I agree w/Donna on the Germans in particular selling off their crap to the US. And Americans who attempt [but not always successfully] to imitate the Germans, by using imports to jump start their own kennels, often fail miserably. I could rattle off a list. As for the dog mentioned, Fausto, his entire litter has hip/elbow problems. The F litter Redwood Krest has had serious health issues in terms of structural integrity. Check out the OFA and see what I mean. I doubt you'll see that dog bred, and if you do, I wouldn't touch those pups with a ten foot poll as littermates of sire/dam count too when you add up the potential for HD and ED.

And then there's the issue of purchasing titled dogs from Europe primarily for the purposes of breeding and producing more Rotties. I'm VERY uncomfortable with that practice, particularly when I see maybe one or two pups from a given litter of many litters that breeder may have bred, showing and getting titled. Few of the get of the imports in this country seem to be OFA'd and that's a bad sign.

I've been "looking" for a breeder to buy a puppy from next year and it's not easy for me, and I know what I'm looking for and at and who's who. I know some people who have gorgeous dogs but they're unethical, @$$holes and have egos the size of Texas. Several of the "German style" breeders in this country don't offer any guarantees. Many are leaving tails on their litters in hopes of their pups ending up in Europe, which is like wishing they'd grow up and become astronauts who get to visit Mars. Maybe 1-3 dogs a year do that! {go to Germany not to Mars! hahaha!] But here are all these arrogant fools leaving tails on their American bred puppies and calling them "German Rottweilers" which is a total lie. I could smack most of them.


Anyway, I could go on and on. Every time I think I've found a decent breeder, I find out something truly appalling about that person. Seriously, I know more dirt on the 'German' style breeders in this country and some abroad than I should. I often think maybe I'll take another crap shoot on a rescue and be done with it. Given the lack of ethics most of these breeders have today [and that includes the COE breeders who think they're all that and a bag of chips], a rescue while being an unknown quantity, is about the same as I'd get with a pup purchased from a 'reputable' breeder.

Bah!
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
He has been bred here.I don't think they will ever do his hips and Elbows here as he passed in Germany.


It is really getting harder and harder to find anything now days that does not have the stud of the month in the pedigree.Looking for a dog that does not come from the lines that is produceing most of the elbow problems we are having in the breed is hard.


There are kennel names that you will never find in my pedigree.As these people are doing nothing for the breed in the long run.


Hopefully I will be long gone when the breed disappears here in the states cause of the bad breeding habits here.
 

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Hmmmm interesting. Fausto has a litter coming right now. That was one of the pups I had to take into consideration. Fausto / Ursa litter = $2500 plus shipping. I like Fausto. I like his looks and I like the fact that he will work. I don't know that much about genes yet and how much they effect a breeding. I do know that in humans you can get a child with problems even though the entire family is problem free. I think at this point we loose more dogs to cancer then we do to HD. There are some people who just won't give credit where credit is due.


Seems to me like saying two olimpians couldn't produce a handicaped child or vice versa.


Could we maybe be overlooking something ? Could the hip and elbow problems have something to do with or be caused by the way some puppies grow ( too fast ) because of feeding or something ? I don't know the answers.


I will say one thing... I don't care where the dog comes from and who owns it. I won't badmouth someones dog untill I personally have something better and even then, telling the world about my problems with a dog isn't my thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
is that Dawn's litter.


She is a very nice person and I hope this breeding produces what she expects it too.





With that said,there is alot more bad going on in dog breeding then good,Dogs with braces,dogs being sent here because they could not pass this test in Germany,but pass it here.So if it did not mean anything to the purchaser,why was the dog not re SchH titled here?If what happens to the dog there means nothing then all tests should be redone here.


Dogs who are titled but not really.Titles can be purchased.If you are going to learn you must learn the dirt too.But take all that is said as an opinion,but remember it and it could come in handy some day.I have seen BISS/BIS winning dogs groomed down to a short coat,the dog is producing some hair children and grand children.But no one knows where it is coming from.I know of dogs who have blown both knees that are still being bred.This is all stuff I want to know so as not to add it to my gene pool.


I look for dogs who were shown and titled by the owner not payed for titles.Anyone can buy a title but it takes a special person and dog to earn them together.





There is also a dog advetived forever as a German import,well it seems to have a litter sister without the same kennel name born here.The owner never comented on this when it was brought up.Like I sad there is way more bad going on then good and we need to know it all.
 

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2bad said:
Hmmmm interesting. Fausto has a litter coming right now. That was one of the pups I had to take into consideration. Fausto / Ursa litter = $2500 plus shipping. I like Fausto. I like his looks and I like the fact that he will work. I don't know that much about genes yet and how much they effect a breeding. I do know that in humans you can get a child with problems even though the entire family is problem free. I think at this point we loose more dogs to cancer then we do to HD. There are some people who just won't give credit where credit is due.


Seems to me like saying two olimpians couldn't produce a handicaped child or vice versa.


Could we maybe be overlooking something ? Could the hip and elbow problems have something to do with or be caused by the way some puppies grow ( too fast ) because of feeding or something ? I don't know the answers.


I will say one thing... I don't care where the dog comes from and who owns it. I won't badmouth someones dog untill I personally have something better and even then, telling the world about my problems with a dog isn't my thing.
Wow, I'm a tad shocked, but not much. Anyway, here's the direct info on the F litter - from www.offa.org directly:

NOTE that every dog in that litter has a SERIOUS health problem, with the exception of ONE dog - the odds of the get of that dog being clear is very slim. Do you realize what it costs to own a dog with ED or HD? What about the pain that dog must live with, even AFTER they get surgery? I think you may need to look at the bigger picture and realize that these diseases are very very bad and make a dog's life miserable, and the owner's pocketbook scream in pain too.



There are some people who just won't give credit where credit is due.
I'm giving all the credit to Redwood Krest for breeding this litter, which is riddled with problems. I'm not sure what sort of 'credit' you mean, but if it's that they haven't done a very good job with this litter, then I'm giving them that right here. Breeding any of the pups from this litter is unethical and charging $2500 for each puppy is a outrageous.

Do you know the stats on ED alone? Let me quote again from the OFA site:

Rottweilers....40.9%
Rottweilers are #2 on the list for ED.

and the problem is growing because people breed dogs knowingly with ED genes, like this breeding you noted. ED is a very painful condition, and causes severe lameless over time. It's not easy to surgically correct and very expensive to get done. It often ends in the dog living a less than full life. How is it ethical to deliberately breed dogs from bad lines w/well known problems? Would you say the same thing if the problem was SAS and the dogs were dropping dead from heart problems? Would you breed a dog with SAS and say it's okay? I hope not.

Please, for your own good and that of this breed, read this page at OFA: http://www.offa.org/edanswers.html

NO dog with a family history like the F litter should be bred, in my opinion, and I think that the stats bear me out on why.

I don't understand the attitude of 'so what', but then again, I've never pretended to understand that given that I'm very politically active and don't sit on my hands while "Rome burns" so to speak.

 

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I understand what you are saying but when I said give credit where credit is due I meant that Fausto deserves credit for earning multi V1 ratings not just here but in multiple other countries. he has earned working titles , earned ZtP in Germany and his elbows do not seem to be slowing him down. Sure... he isn't an old man yet but he is getting along just fine right now. Samantha and Steve do not try to hide anything about him. Hiding it would be unethical but you have very knowledgeable breeders willing to breed to him and I'm sure it isn't just about money. SHAKA is another fine example. A dog doesn't win like that without having some quality to him bad elbow and all. A perfect example is Cleo a FULL SIBLING with NO elbow problems... NONE ! At five years old I'd say she is clear of the problems her brother has. So who is to say that it is going to pass down to every dog with those genes for sure. Yes a lot of breeding is done for money but it seems funny that there would be so many people lined up to breed to these so called bad dogs. The good thing is that nobody is holding a gun to anyones head to buy one of these pups. You can buy what you want with your money because EVERY dog is a gamble and ANY dog can have bad elbows or hips no matter where it comes from. I still say that more of our breed is dropping dead of cancer than bad hips / elbows and that is something breeding can't control.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Again looking at the whole picture.


The dog was not titled by the owner,the title was payed for.Since they payed someone to train and show the dog.The best dogs are owner handled to all titles and should be doing both.


Not all dogsthat are top winning dogs got there because they were the best.There is way more going on behind the doors at dog shows,I would never breed to a dog who tested positive for anything.We don't know what it will do to the breed in the long run.Nor will I ever breed to a dog because of it's winning history.People are breeding to what is winning cause they want to win that is all.They don't look at the big picture,just what kind of name they can make for them selves.


people breeding dogs with ED are doing the same.Looking to make a name for them selves,look up kennels with Ed and ones with out it.


If some people can continue to not have it and others keep breeding to dogs with it and keep getting it ,this should tell people to stop breeding to the dogs who have it.But no test and tell and you can breed any genitic health problem you want as long as you tell everyone about it.


Stupid is as stupid does.JMO
 

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Like I sad there is way more bad going on then good and we need to know it all.
Yep. Even people who're "nice" in person can be flat out liars and become very nasty once uncovered. I know
this on a personal level with several Rottie people who breed regularly/show/brag/lie. ha!

I'm kinda glad this subject came up. The same exact discussion was going on a year+ ago elsewhere online,
but a certain person threatened to sue anyone who discussed this litter/issue, saying it would affect
the breeding prospects of her dog.
So even knowing this litter had a lot of problems, with 4 out of 7 pups
showing clearly diseased elbows [grade I & II] and hip dysplasia [moderate to severe!], she planned
on breeding the dog she had, which, even statistically speaking, is a fluke given this litter's health status.
I'm not disappointed, I'm in awe that anyone has [email protected] that big. A fluke in a litter means an individual dog
came out okay but the rest were basically [email protected] No one with smarts/ethics breeds a fluke. Here's an article
from a Mastiff breeder who's courageous enough to expose what goes on in her breed [surely mirrored in Rotties too]:
http://devinefarm.net/rp/rpnohd.htm

Go ahead, read it and see if I'm just blowing smoke up your bum.


2Bad, you're not looking at the litter, you're looking at a person [big mistake], whom you obviously have spoken to - as have I.
I met the persons too and chitchatted for over an hour or more. Big deal. I don't confuse the fact that a person may have a likeable
demeanor with the facts that only one dog out of the entire litter has shown any promise. As for winning conformation
titles or working ratings - uh, so what? A fluke is a fluke. A pretty dog with an unhealthy family history is still just a pretty face, when all the genetic factors are weighed into the equation, those genetic factors outweigh [in terms of con vs. pro] the phenotype.

A dog is not merely a certain phenotype, he or she is also a genotype, and with over 50% of a litter having seriously diseased
structural issues, it's CLEAR that those dogs with ED/HD didn't get that way from being top performance dogs [which can cause
joints to break down, but then again, Germany's top sires have to be working dogs and have passing hips/elbows so they can
perform - and many stay that way despite a work spent doing tough SchH routines until they're aged]. They got that
way because the litter has inherited a bad combo of genes.

Glossing over the facts isn't going to cut it. Claiming that no one is being forced to buy a puppy from this genetic
line is like saying no one forced Pinto buyers into it, when the cars had a propensity to blow and burn in a small rear end
collision. The issue isn't whether or not Pinto buyers could choose, it was that they didn't understand the risks when they did choose, and Ford lied and covered up. That's why they lost the subsequent lawsuits when people died in the Pinto.

No matter how much a buyer may or may not know, it's never going to really impact upon them until the dog they bought comes up lame and needs surgery. Do you know what it costs now to put in ONE new hip, much less a bilateral hip surgery? We're talking $6K and up. For that sort of money, a person would've been better off going to see a young certified clear adult [from clear parents] and buying it over in Germany or where ever. Even if the breeder were to pay for two new hips and an elbow or two on one dog [which will never happen, I guarantee it], does any sane owner really want to go thru that with their poor dog? Months and months of down
time, totally restricted life for the dog, who knows how much more $$ spent on rehab, lab work and Xrays? It makes NO sense
even IF a puppy buyer understood the risks. And I highly doubt any breeder will be handing out print-outs of OFA's FAQs
on HD and ED, so that a buyer could really realize the high risk of a puppy from a genetic background rife with hip and
elbow dysplasia.

One more thing: good breeding is about BETTERING the breed. Can you share with us how breeding a dog with a genetic background like this, when there are many more sires out there without this genetic issue, is bettering this breed?

Plenty of top rated German imports are here in the US right now, who have clear elbows, clear hips and have come from litters with
the same. Eddy and Vico come to mind, and then there're the frozen semens of many great producers who came
here and were collected prior to death. Why choose a dog with a clearly defective background to sire any litter? I do not see
the gain here other than financial for whomever is involved, and I'd have to ask why again. None of this makes any sense.

Okay, done lecturing - it's good to have these discussions openly, because this is the sort of stuff that people tend to cover up. Which will explain why the Rottie is #2 for bad elbows. One last thing - I think that anyone who threatens to sue anyone who discusses this
stuff openly is only doing so because they know there is something to hide and they don't want it exposed. And threatening to sue
whomever discusses this openly also says a WHOLE lot about the person making the threat - and none of it good. Get my point?

BTW, to whomever wants to know - nope, I've never personally bred a litter of dogs. I grew up with a mom who used to show, title
and periodically breed a Terrier breed. This was back in the day before sophisticated testing for diseases common in that breed. But
she did know a problem when she saw the proof in the litters. Meaning, the bitch was spayed. One bitch we had threw bad bites,
so after a litter of 5 showed 4 with an underbite, 1 with perfect conformation [who went back to the stud dog owner/breeder of our bitch] and another subsequent litter came up w/the same using a different sire, the bitch was spayed. All pups went to pet homes but one. He went on to throw bad bites, so clearly it was on the dam's side and he was also neutered, despite being a
multi-winning Champion. But he did sire several litters, many with bad bites and bad fronts.

I will say one thing... I don't care where the dog comes from and who owns it. I won't badmouth someones dog untill I personally have something better and even then, telling the world about my problems with a dog isn't my thing.
Doing the right thing means DOING it, not just talking a good game. I never breed because I've basically already had the experiences before I got into Rotties. But I do know a lot from reading, studying, listening and seeing. And I know right from wrong. Ethical vs. non-ethical. It's not badmouthing to look at the stats on a litter, see what's going on, and then decide. Discussing it openly is ethical
conduct. Covering it up, pretending it's some issue with something else or threatening to sue anyone who discusses the facts is evidence of unethical conduct.
At least that's what I was taught. BTW, not telling the truth [as you call it, "my problems with a dog"] is basically lying by omission. Same as lying outright. If you went to buy a car, and owner simply didn't tell you the car has transmission issues if you didn't remember to ask, was he lying or deceiving you?


 

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what ever happened to the FUN in looking for a puppy
I guess that's why there're pet shops. They make it fun. Hope you don't ask the tough questions. Act on emotion not with your head.

Buying from a breeder is tough for the most savvy people, and I'm far from the most savvy.
 

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pet shops ? NO WAY

I think i do act on my emotions

I rescue only rescue ...... i rescued my first dog in 1983


kinda glad i do too ..... theres way too many homeless rottweilers

it aint much i am only one person ..... but if everybody thought that way


can't breed em can't show em ..... just gotta love em


but pet shops NO WAY ........ i think they are ripping people off
 

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Yes, of course they're ripping people off at pet shops, supporting puppy mills and all that bad stuff. I wasn't advocating that at all.
Rescuing is a fine and terrific moral and real choice - one I've made too - several times in fact. Both my purebred dogs, both from nice lines, are, respectively, a shelter rescue and an original owner "rescue". I chose him over another dog who was offered to me free, with AKC papers, etc., and whom could be shown and likely finished, probably specialed. Something told me to take the rejected dog instead. So I did. Now I can't show him but he's a TERRIFIC dog!

In the past, I've spent plenty of $ on dogs, a couple I actually finished [not Rotts]. I've decided I'd like to do that again for various reasons. No intentions to breed dogs per se.

Finding a dog who has a better than average chance of winning consistently in the conformation ring and performing a basic BH and or CD/CDX and up, isn't easy. So many factors, and the health histories of both sire/dam are absolutely essential. Buying a dog from a line that has well documented health problems, when other choices out there exist [and I mean the breeder too had other choices in terms of sire] is nuts. My opinion but I doubt I'm alone in this one [many other discussions/people elsewhere tend to agree w/me on this one].



BTW, this isn't a US problem. This is a WORLD WIDE problem. Price is no guarantee that you'll get a healthy dog or a great looking dog. I've got a $2300 pet here right now -
 
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